# Islamophobia follows from observing Islam-majority nations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229 "2017-02-07T15:05:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/61 "2017-02-08T12:37:43Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > This study is from 2001 > > [https://freedomhouse.org/article/new-study-details-islamic-worlds-democracy-deficit](https://freedomhouse.org/article/new-study-details-islamic-worlds-democracy-deficit) > > Islamic majority nations lag the rest of the world in civil rights and human rights. Like it or not, thats how things are right now. > > I was hoping things have improved, but looking at this map from 2016, they really haven’t improved in the Muslim world. > > [Anxious Dictators, Wavering Democracies: Global Freedom under Pressure | Freedom House](https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2016) Ah, so we aren’t talking about a “universal pattern”, but rather a _tendency_. As for Muslim nations “lagging the rest of the world”, it’s much more accurate to say that post-colonial countries in Africa and Asia are lagging the West, be they Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or a mix of these. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/62 "2017-02-08T13:37:46Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Ah, exceptions. But you didn’t talk about any exceptions in your OP. In fact your stance as phrased seemed pretty absolute. As written I’d assume even a single exception would invalidate your premise, wouldn’t you? > > And as **John Mace** noticed, isn’t it peculiar that the exceptions you acknowledge exist just happen to be western democracies themselves. I mean, what are the odds ;)? The odds are very low. First, as I mentioned, even these “western democracies” that were called out (Albania and Bosnia) have a very large (over 20) percent of their citizenry favoring such Islamic-driven ideals such as stoning for slavery, or Sharia law for all. Second, these two tiny nations represent a very small portion of the Muslim-majority world. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/63 "2017-02-08T13:47:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ah, so we aren’t talking about a “universal pattern”, but rather a _tendency_. > > As for Muslim nations “lagging the rest of the world”, it’s much more accurate to say that post-colonial countries in Africa and Asia are lagging the West, be they Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or a mix of these. No; we are talking about a universal pattern. Word floofing does not help you much when you are trying to obfuscate what the pattern of culture and laws is in Islam-majority nations. You might refer to 20-80+ percent of a population wanting corporal punishment for theft or stoning for adultery as a “tendency” or “lagging the west,” but what ya got there is a pattern of culture and beliefs that is markedly antithetical to western culture and beliefs. You might be able to find occasional pockets of exception here and there, but perhaps you’d like to review what a “pattern” is… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/64 "2017-02-08T14:01:03Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > No; we are talking about a universal pattern. > Word floofing does not help you much when you are trying to obfuscate what the pattern of culture and laws is in Islam-majority nations. > > You might refer to 20-80+ percent of a population wanting corporal punishment for theft or stoning for adultery as a “tendency” or “lagging the west,” but what ya got there is a pattern of culture and beliefs that is markedly antithetical to western culture and beliefs. > > You might be able to find occasional pockets of exception here and there, but perhaps you’d like to review what a “pattern” is… 🙂 I asked you to define this supposed pattern, and you still haven’t. How about starting there? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/65 "2017-02-08T14:22:25Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I asked you to define this supposed pattern, and you still haven’t. How about starting there? Culture: Intolerance of the idea that an individual should be able to freely choose what to believe, and freely express it. Review attitudes toward apostasy, or reaction to cartoons mocking Islam, for example. Broad subjugation of women; homophobia. Laws: Support for Sharia, and laws which reflect it Perhaps you would like to advance an Islamic-majority country (of any size–i.e., one which represents a large-enough bloc of Muslims to be representative) and ask me to be more specific about a pattern difference between that one and a western democratic one… I don’t think it will be a productive counter-argument for you to pretend there is no general difference in the patterns of culture and laws between the average Islam-majority nation and western democracies. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/66 "2017-02-08T14:23:52Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I asked you to define this supposed pattern, and you still haven’t. How about starting there? You can understand his “pattern perception” from this thread here: [it is the pre conclusion via prejudiced ideas of inferiority and then the auto confirmation.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=738860&highlight=ebola+competent&page=2) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/67 "2017-02-08T14:31:04Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Culture: > Intolerance of the idea that an individual should be able to freely choose what to believe, and freely express it. Review attitudes toward apostasy, or reaction to cartoons mocking Islam, for example. > Broad subjugation of women; homophobia. > > Laws: > Support for Sharia, and laws which reflect it > > Perhaps you would like to advance an Islamic-majority country (of any size–i.e., one which represents a large-enough bloc of Muslims to be representative) and ask me to be more specific about a pattern difference between that one and a western democratic one… > > I don’t think it will be a productive counter-argument for you to pretend there is no general difference in the patterns of culture and laws between the average Islam-majority nation and western democracies. Now I’m confused; in the OP, you seem to argue that all Muslim-majority countries share the same culture, laws, and practices. This post, though, appears to argue instead that no Muslim-majority countries are Western democracies, which is quite a different claim. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/68 "2017-02-08T14:45:47Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Thank you for proving my point. > > You seem to be unable to contemplate the possibility that if someone speaks about a particular issue regarding human rights it is not a smokescreen for bigotry. > That is exactly the point I was rising, you may not have used the word Islamophobe, but that’s essentially what you called me. > What you are doing, and what many do when banding the word “Islamophobia” around, is setting up straw men. No, I was simply pointing out your own strawman. Nobody has a problem with you criticizing Islam. I hate Islam too. The problem is when you take that criticism and somehow conclude that it is therefore okay to discriminate against Muslims. And that’s the part you conveniently left out of your “criticize Saudi Arabia = you’re an Islamaphobe” slogan. Please, criticize Saudi Arabia all you want. But you can’t criticize them on humanitarian grounds and then turn around and discriminate against Muslims without being a hypocrite. And people get to point that hypocrisy out, whether you like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/69 "2017-02-08T15:06:44Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Culture: > Intolerance of the idea that an individual should be able to freely choose what to believe, and freely express it. Review attitudes toward apostasy, or reaction to cartoons mocking Islam, for example. > Broad subjugation of women; homophobia. > > Laws: > Support for Sharia, and laws which reflect it > > Perhaps you would like to advance an Islamic-majority country (of any size–i.e., one which represents a large-enough bloc of Muslims to be representative) and ask me to be more specific about a pattern difference between that one and a western democratic one… > > I don’t think it will be a productive counter-argument for you to pretend there is no general difference in the patterns of culture and laws between the average Islam-majority nation and western democracies. Which of these don’t apply to Trump’s America? Homophobia, rolling back women’s rights, “attitudes towards Muslims/atheists/non-Christians”, reactions to professional athletes who don’t stand for a song, support for biblical law and laws which reflect it, etc. Also, white conservatives commit far more terrorism on US soil than Muslims do. Should we deport all the white dudes, or at least Trump supporters? Or are your views not consistent when applied to people similar to yourself instead of the easy scapegoat of scary brown foreigners? ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/70 "2017-02-08T15:15:29Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Which of these don’t apply to Trump’s America? Homophobia, rolling back women’s rights, “attitudes towards Muslims/atheists/non-Christians”, reactions to professional athletes who don’t stand for a song, support for biblical law and laws which reflect it, etc. Also, white conservatives commit far more terrorism on US soil than Muslims do. > > Should we deport all the white dudes, or at least Trump supporters? Or are your views not consistent when applied to people similar to yourself instead of the easy scapegoat of scary brown foreigners? Yeah, that’s the frightening thing about this current administration. It is approaching issues like the stereotypical “scary Islamic extremist” that is so vilified. Definitely not a good thing! ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/71 "2017-02-08T15:39:21Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > We really should stop using the silly term “Islamophobic”. A phobia is an irrational fear or dislike of something. There is nothing irrational about disliking Islam and the culture that usually goes with it. This is what reactionaries say when they’re called homophobes. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/72 "2017-02-08T15:50:51Z")
> [@](#): > > None of the 16 Arab states of the Middle East and North Africa is a democracy. To be fair, you’re not going to see a lot of democracy in post-colonial states; or if it is technically a democracy it’ll be your typical strongman/ president for life setup. Doubly for for petrostates suffering from [Resource Curse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/73 "2017-02-08T15:59:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I see that having seized on this pathetic straw of misinterpreting my words as being about “feelings” you won’t let go of it. Though not completely surprising, considering how weak whatever else you’re saying is. Then I encourage you to use better, more precise language. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > To address the substance of what you’ve said here, such as it is: the data about Muslims living here is not any more “data” than the data about Muslims living elsewhere. Both are the basis for extrapolations about what would happen in a certain hypothetical situation. The fact that you’ve decided that one is “data” and one is not is just about you preferring to extrapolate from one over the other. Possibly due to your own “feelings” about the matter. Here’s the [data you requested](https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorism-immigration-risk-analysis). I hope you’ll agree that it’s not an extrapolation, or speculation on a hypothetical, nor my “feelings on the matter”. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/74 "2017-02-08T16:06:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Here’s the [data you requested](https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorism-immigration-risk-analysis). I hope you’ll agree that it’s not an extrapolation, or speculation on a hypothetical, nor my “feelings on the matter”. Actually what I would say is that the fact that you’ve offered that up as a cite shows that you have no understanding at all of what this entire thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/75 "2017-02-08T16:14:01Z")
English may not be my first language, but I didn’t learn it last night. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/76 "2017-02-08T18:24:05Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > This is what reactionaries say when they’re called homophobes. Nah! Two different things. One is a religion with the backward culture that comes with it and the other is er, something else. Being against this backwardness is perfectly healthy and wholesome. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/77 "2017-02-08T18:38:16Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > Nah! Two different things. One is a religion with the backward culture that comes with it and the other is er, something else. > > Being against this backwardness is perfectly healthy and wholesome. Can you support your claim that all Muslims share the same culture? ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/78 "2017-02-08T20:26:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Can you support your claim that all Muslims share the same culture? Some of the plastic Muslims can of course be relatively liberal. But let’s not be kidding yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/79 "2017-02-08T21:36:18Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > Some of the plastic Muslims can of course be relatively liberal. But let’s not be kidding yourself. So, “no” is your answer, then. Sounds about right, and par for the course. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/80 "2017-02-08T22:03:34Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > Nah! Two different things. One is a religion with the backward culture that comes with it and the other is er, something else. I wasn’t making an argument either way, but I was struck by the similar wording. [For example.](http://www.conservapedia.com/Homophobia) I’m guessing those with less politicized fears say being afraid of heights, water, or spiders is rational too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229.md?page=5)