# Islamophobia follows from observing Islam-majority nations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229 "2017-02-07T15:05:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/121 "2017-02-10T02:38:59Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > It is your own side of the isle that is the cause of a slide to the right in today’s politics. > Your continued arrogance, propaganda and heavy handed enforcement of your ideals and lunacies have finaly broken the camel’s back. > > But the “alt-right” aren’t today’s version of the fascists. > Islam is the threat to secular democracy and, more immidiate, so are the SJW’s and AntiFa. Certainly they are fascists in their own right but they are also collaborators facilitating the spread of Islam. [Nothing new here:](http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/weltparasit.htm) Despite that, the power of Jewry and its supporters grew so great in the German people that it lead to the collapse in 1918. The primary cause for this was the large increase in the population of our people, combined with growing liberal tendencies, which led more and more Germans to misperceive the fact of the racial problem, and thus become indifferent to the Jewish danger. Always those darn liberal tendencies, weakening the ethnostate by allowing the undesirables in. At least own your fascism, don’t blame it on me or mine. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > See, this is where it gets so irritating for me. > > The VAST majority of Muslims who live in Islam-majority nations live[under a culture where support for Sharia as the law of the land is over 50% of the populace,](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/) and where that support has driven laws and culture which reflect that bias. > You are being (deliberately?) disingenuous by claiming a “range” from 8% in Azerbaijan with a population of 10 million, to 72% for nations like Indonesia (260M) or 84% like Pakistan (190M). > > And notice Pew was not even able to conduct research in nations like Saudi Arabia or Iran… Your argument is that Muslim nations follow a “universal pattern”. Your words. Turns out, they don’t. Maybe try your OP again, with a new claim? > [@](#): > > It’s just bullshit that “hey; they got some bad places; we got some bad places.” > > Bullshit. Never said that, or anything like it. > [@](#): > > Grab yourself a poster mocking Mohammed as a clown using bikini-clad girls to parade it around the downtown in every Islam-majority nation capital. Try the same using Jesus as the subject here in the US. Throw in another set using the national leaders on the posters, and some gay guys in short shorts as the poster holders. > > Get back to me with which group is left at the end of your experiment. > > Sheesh. This is your grand point, that the US and the Third World are different? Who are you arguing with? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/122 "2017-02-10T03:31:35Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > [https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e8cc727c9fb57eeff2137cefe5875fd4](https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e8cc727c9fb57eeff2137cefe5875fd4) > > The worst of the democracy deficit seems to be in the middle east-north Africa region. Colonial areas in Asia are doing better, and southern Africa is slightly better than north Africa. Latin America is doing much better than either Asia or Africa post-colonial areas. But many Latin American nations have more wealth and rejected colonialization earlier. Plus I don’t think they have the issues with badly drawn borders like Africa and the middle east do. Sure, that’s true. One thing to note is how many of those Middle Eastern & North African countries got Soviet aid in their fights for independence, and became Soviet allies after the fact, leading the US to scramble to secure its own allies in the region to serve as a bulwark against Communism. This led to a lot of dictatorships being propped up, some aligned with the US (Saudi Arabia, Chad, Sudan, DR Congo, Sudan, etc), and some with the Soviets (Libya, Iraq, Algeria, Syria, etc). Unsurprisingly, these countries are a bit behind in democratizing, compared to non-aligned countries like Tanzania and Niger. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/123 "2017-02-10T18:33:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So, “no” is your answer, then. Sounds about right, and par for the course. What is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/124 "2017-02-10T18:39:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Maybe liberals are capable of understanding things conservatives aren’t capable of understanding. Nah. All that work Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins etc have put in to help “liberals” and they still refuse to understand. Claiming everyone is just the same or it’s just a few Muslims who don’t understand the Koran like we do. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/125 "2017-02-10T18:50:05Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > What is your point? You claimed there’s a “Muslim culture”, then didn’t even try to defend it when challenged. You couldn’t, because you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/126 "2017-02-10T18:56:39Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Wherever Muslims have a majority within a nation, that nation has a cultural theme, specific laws, and defacto practices which which are broadly antithetical to western culture, laws and practices. > > This is the root of Islamophobia. I think you’ve missed an important step in your argument. So far as I can tell, you haven’t actually linked the bad things you associate with Islam with Islamophobia - that is to say, you have said that Islamophobia is the response to “bad shit in Islam”, and then supported your “bad shit in Islam” point (which is being debated), but you don’t actually seem to have connected actual Islamophobia \*to \*that bad shit. For “bad shit in Islam” that you’ve brought up to be the “root of Islamophobia”, you need to show that those who are Islamophobes have accurate knowledge of that bad shit and that that is the cause of their reaction. And I think you’ve missed that step out. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/127 "2017-02-10T19:02:06Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > See, this is where it gets so irritating for me. > > The VAST majority of Muslims who live in Islam-majority nations live[under a culture where support for Sharia as the law of the land is over 50% of the populace,](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/) and where that support has driven laws and culture which reflect that bias. > You are being (deliberately?) disingenuous by claiming a “range” from 8% in Azerbaijan with a population of 10 million, to 72% for nations like Indonesia (260M) or 84% like Pakistan (190M). > > And notice Pew was not even able to conduct research in nations like Saudi Arabia or Iran… > > It’s just bullshit that “hey; they got some bad places; we got some bad places.” > > Bullshit. > > Grab yourself a poster mocking Mohammed as a clown using bikini-clad girls to parade it around the downtown in every Islam-majority nation capital. Try the same using Jesus as the subject here in the US. Throw in another set using the national leaders on the posters, and some gay guys in short shorts as the poster holders. > > Get back to me with which group is left at the end of your experiment. > > Sheesh. I just listened to [a talk by Maajid Nawaz](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krXat8ahOKE), he points out an important distinction to be made, between Muslims and Islamism, I think most of the people that are tarred with the “islamophobe” brush are against Islamism, not necessarily against Muslims. Personally I get along just fine with the Muslims I know, I probably wouldn’t get along well with an Islamist (and vice versa). ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/128 "2017-02-10T23:44:51Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > I am always confused why people form perceptions about a group of individuals based on their political climate or the observer’s (often mistaken) perception of their political climate. When you see photos from Iranians, Iraqis, etc. about everyday life in those countries, they are on the whole indistinguishable from ours save for obvious differences in skin color, cultural garb, etc. We can no more judge the people of their countries by their mass media portrayals or politics than they can judge the people of our country by our mass media portrayals and politics. > > Thus I see Islamophobia as completely unjustified based on your criteria. I think the OPs observation cuts through all of that. If you look at the places where Islam is a strong majority, what types of societies are formed there? Are they societies that mesh with Western values or conflict with them? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/129 "2017-02-10T23:47:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I agree that Trump’s rhetoric is helping ISIS. But so is yours. This is a superb point. I wish people had a better appreciation for that fact. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/130 "2017-02-11T00:24:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is a superb point. I wish people had a better appreciation for that fact. You agree that Trump’s rhetoric helps ISIS? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/131 "2017-02-11T06:16:32Z")
Right now, at this moment in history, are there some Christian countries that are doing better than most all the majority Muslim countries when it comes to upholding liberal values? Sure. But when you look at the whole history of Christianity and the whole history of Islam, I don’t really see much difference. Both have done plenty of awful things in the name of the religion, and plenty of awful things that they found religious excuses for. Things got substantially better in some Western democracies as they became increasingly democratic. Things got substantially worse in some majority-Muslim countries when theocracies took over. In both cases, it wasn’t the religion that changed, but the political system. Also, I’ve been co-workers and friends with people from Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Jordan, and Turkey, and grew up with close friends whose parents hailed from some of these places. My personal experience has consistently been that the lives and values of Muslims in America aren’t really substantially different from mine or most of my other friends. Yeah, that’s anecdotal experience based on a sample that’s biased towards well-educated middle-class people living near large cities… but still, at least it’s an opinion formed from actual _experience_. I wonder how many of the people who are convinced that Muslims are so unable to embrace American values have actually spent any time getting to know _any_ Muslims in America. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/132 "2017-02-11T07:13:57Z")
Also, it might be worth considering the many examples of Western democracies actively supporting dictators and monarchies in the Muslim world, and even helping overthrow the democratically elected leader in Iran, leading ultimately to the theocracy they have there today. The fact that autocratic and theocratic governments are not conducive to freedom and protection of civil liberties is pretty much a tautology. The claim that it was _Islam_ specifically that made these countries go that way is far more suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/133 "2017-02-11T16:55:57Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Your argument is that Muslim nations follow a “universal pattern”. Your words. Turns out, they don’t. Maybe try your OP again, with a new claim? Yes, they do. And you are trying to fall back on an argument that finds tiny exceptions to argue there is no pattern. Which is what you have to do to maintain a pretense that Islam-majority nations do not all follow a universal pattern. While the extent varies, the overall pattern does not, and the vast vast majority of Muslims living in a Muslim-majority nation live under regimes and cultures and laws which reflect the end of the spectrum that is very very antithetical with the west. This is the fundamental reason Islamophobia is as pervasive as it is. Not some argument about whether or not the Jews in the Old Testament were as violent as the modern day Islamist extremist. Not some argument about how peaceful the leaders are… What makes Islamophobia so pervasive is the observation of how antithetical is the pattern within Muslim majority nations. Where Muslims make up the majority, the nations suck wrt western ideals. And the pattern is universal. I am amused, for example, at how often Indonesia is raised as a relatively model Muslim-majority nation as if, outside of Bandeh Aceh, things are just peachy. [LOL.](http://time.com/4663571/jakarta-governor-ahok-indonesia-islam/) I challenge you to truck off to Jakarta and try a little freedom of expression out in the streets with your bikini-clad model carrying a poster trumpeting LGBT rights along with the need to turn away from Islam. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/134 "2017-02-11T16:57:57Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Right now, at this moment in history, are there some Christian countries that are doing better than most all the majority Muslim countries when it comes to upholding liberal values? Sure. But when you look at the whole history of Christianity and the whole history of Islam, I don’t really see much difference. I don’t really disagree with this. Ditto if you throw in Jews. Read the book of Joshua. But we aren’t talking about “the whole history.” We are talking about now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/135 "2017-02-11T17:23:04Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I don’t really disagree with this. > Ditto if you throw in Jews. Read the book of Joshua. > > But we aren’t talking about “the whole history.” > > We are talking about now. Now, what’s “special” is various facts of geopolitics, history, and the like. Not anything unique or special about the Quran or the tenets of Islam as a whole. Politics, war, conquest, economics, colonialism, and similar things are responsible for this mess; not religious scripture or tenets. And only political and economic solutions could have any hope of fixing it. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/136 "2017-02-11T22:24:30Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I don’t really disagree with this. > Ditto if you throw in Jews. Read the book of Joshua. > > But we aren’t talking about “the whole history.” > > We are talking about now. My point is, if Islam were the _reason_ for the problems in those countries, this effect would have shown up throughout much more of their history. Instead, there are historical reasons why more theocratic governments arose in these countries (not least of which is substantial Cold-War meddling by the Western powers), and then those theocracies were based on what the local religion happened to be. If you changed which countries were majority Christian and which were majority Muslim, but left other factors the same, then I think it likely that we’d have ended up with something like a Christian Ayatollah, a Christian Taliban, a Christian ISIS, and so forth. (Or sure, swap in Judaism or any other religion and it’s much the same.) It’s not something inherent in Islam, that’s just what the theocrats and fundamentalists in those countries had to work with. Of course you might say, even if it’s _really_ about the geopolitical history of these countries and not something about Islam itself, it still may be that people from these places can’t assimilate and embrace Western values. But that assertion doesn’t match up with _any_ of my personal experience with people from Iran, Jordan, Pakistan, etc. Sure, maybe my experience with Muslims in America is not typical… but until someone shows some actual evidence of that, I’m going to believe what I’ve seen with my own eyes. Most of the concerns I hear about Muslims in America seem to come from people who haven’t really gotten to know any American Muslims very well. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/137 "2017-02-12T00:57:36Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It’s pretty easy to find broad themes within the vast majority of Muslim-majority nations: > > 1. Support for Sharia > 2. Oppression of free thought and independent thinking wherever that free thought and independent thinking are in opposition to Islam > 3. Homophobia and oppression of women, where those groups have a much higher hill to climb to find equality > 4. Separation of church and state > 5. A practical approach that Islamic ideals and not secular ideals, should be taught and executed as prime values, and that all other considerations, including secular governance, should be considered subject to Islam There are a ton of western nations that reject “seperation of Church and State”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/138 "2017-02-12T02:32:24Z")
Oops. I forgot to [welcome Jefferson](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=818900) to the Straight Dope. Posted in both threads linked. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/139 "2017-02-12T02:46:21Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Yes, they do. > And you are trying to fall back on an argument that finds tiny exceptions to argue there is no pattern. > > Which is what you have to do to maintain a pretense that Islam-majority nations do not all follow a universal pattern. > While the extent varies, the overall pattern does not, and the vast vast majority of Muslims living in a Muslim-majority nation live under regimes and cultures and laws which reflect the end of the spectrum that is very very antithetical with the west. [Universal](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/universal?s=t) 1. of, relating to, or characteristic of all or the whole: 2. applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: 3. affecting, concerning, or involving all: 4. used or understood by all: 5. present everywhere: 6. versed in or embracing many or all skills, branches of learning, etc.: 7. of or relating to the universe, all nature, or all existing things: If there exceptions, then it ain’t universal. So, again, maybe retry your OP with a new claim? > [@](#): > > This is the fundamental reason Islamophobia is as pervasive as it is. Not some argument about whether or not the Jews in the Old Testament were as violent as the modern day Islamist extremist. Not some argument about how peaceful the leaders are… > > What makes Islamophobia so pervasive is the observation of how antithetical is the pattern within Muslim majority nations. Where Muslims make up the majority, the nations suck wrt western ideals. And the pattern is universal. This remains unsubstantiated. It may be why _you_ are Islamophobic, but you’ve presented no evidence that it’s the reason why anyone else is. > [@](#): > > I am amused, for example, at how often Indonesia is raised as a relatively model Muslim-majority nation as if, outside of Bandeh Aceh, things are just peachy. > > [LOL.](http://time.com/4663571/jakarta-governor-ahok-indonesia-islam/) > > I challenge you to truck off to Jakarta and try a little freedom of expression out in the streets with your bikini-clad model carrying a poster trumpeting LGBT rights along with the need to turn away from Islam. 🙂 This is not evidence, it’s a thought experiment. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/140 "2017-02-12T03:21:35Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But the “alt-right” aren’t today’s version of the fascists. > Islam is the threat to secular democracy and, more immidiate, so are the SJW’s and AntiFa. Certainly they are fascists in their own right but they are also collaborators facilitating the spread of Islam. …well, as the resident self-admitted SJW of these boards, I am astonished and delighted to find out that I am a threat to secular democracy. And a facist to boot. And a collaborator! Who am I collaborating with? I’d love to be able to use this new found power of mine! What would you suggest that I do first? > [@](#): > > #notallnazis Do you believe that all Muslims share the same culture? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229.md?page=8)