# Islands must be smaller than continents? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 15, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180 "2008-12-15T00:24:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/21 "2008-12-22T04:04:02Z")
> [@Yossarian](#): > > My point was this: To provide a partial resolution to this, I provided the perspective of a geologist (me!) who doesn’t have much patience for arbitrary classification schemes. In geology, whether or not something is “continental” is definite. If it’s not “continental”, then it’s “oceanic”, so given that there are, indeed, things called “islands” (of a size TBD–I’d say “smaller than Australia”) it just so happens that there are “continental islands” (New Zealand, etc.) and there are “oceanic islands” (Hawai’i, Tahiti), and there are “oceanic island arcs” (Lesser Antilles) and that about covers it, with no (well, barely any) arbitrary distinction required. Well, to further confuse matters, there are areas of oceanic crust on the continents, such as in eastern Panama, which were uplifted from the ocean floor. So what are those, islands? Oceans? In fact, it doesn’t make any sense to classify landmasses as continents or islands based on the composition of the crust. “Continental crust” was named that because it makes up most of the continents; to work backward and classify islands as continents merely because they are made of the same kind of rock has no particular logic to it. It doesn’t mean that landmasses made of continental crust should be called continents. If you have “no patience with arbitrary classification schemes,” you’re not going to improve matters with the one you suggested. The thing is, the idea of what a continent is has evolved over time. In the ancient world, they were simply broad geographical areas distributed around the Mediterranean, which happened to be separated by minor seas (Red and Black) or the Strait of Gibraltar. It didn’t matter whether or not they were surrounded by water, or connected in some distant region like Europe and Asia were. It was only with the discovery of the Americas that “continent” began to take on its modern meaning. People became aware that these landmasses were similar in size to the known continents. At the same time it also became evident that Africa was mostly surrounded by water. “Continent” began to be understood as referring to a major land mass mostly surrounded by water (even though Europe and Asia were broadly connected). It should be noted that the classification of what is and is not a continent varies culturally; Latin American geographers (and I believe many Europeans) consider the Americas to be a single continent whereas we divide them into two. Once Australia and Antarctica were discovered the term “continent” was extended to them as well, based on the new concept. (It helped that they were both completely isolated from the other continents.) Finally, this concept was applied retroactively, and many geographers began to lump two of the classical continents together as Eurasia. In deciding the final number of continents, I think there has been a tendency to consider that they must be comparable in size to the original three continents. Hence there is some ambivalence about Australia, which is slightly smaller than Europe. Greenland and other large islands are clearly much smaller, and so have never been considered continents. The result is that we have a semi-scientific overlay on what was originally a purely arbitrary classification. This prompts people to try to make the definition even more scientific. Personally I think this is rather pointless. The progression in classification from classical to semi-scientific is echoed in the classification of the planets. The ancients knew of five planets, which were simply stars that moved. The Earth was not one of them. Once the nature of the classical planets became known, the original concept was changed completely so that it included the Earth. The definition has changed and evolved further as the asteroids and Kuiper belt objects have been discovered. The first asteroids discovered were considered planets, as was the first Kuiper belt object, Pluto. As more and more such objects were discovered, astronomers tinkered with the definitions in order not to have “too many” planets, resulting in the recent demotion of Pluto. But these are still arbitrary classifications, even if put in scientific terms. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/22 "2008-12-22T05:26:24Z")
What about this island, Earth? Huh? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/23 "2008-12-22T06:28:17Z")
> [@Yossarian](#): > > If I were a splitter, rather than a lumper (and I am a die-hard lumper), I’d say we call Australia a medium landmass (“messo-continent”?) Let’s call it a dwarf continent, and insist that despite the name it’s not actually any kind of continent at all. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/24 "2008-12-22T07:37:39Z")
> [@Interrobang](#): > > Let’s call it a dwarf continent If Australia is to be called a Dwarf Continent, then I suggest that based on Peter Jackson’s Epic Travelogue Trilogy for the New Zealand Board fo Tourism we should refer to New Zealand as a “Hobbit Continent”. ---
**Author:** ![Yossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/9de0a6/32.png) [@Yossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yossarian)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/25 "2008-12-22T16:13:21Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Well, to further confuse matters, there are areas of oceanic crust on the continents, such as in eastern Panama, which were uplifted from the ocean floor. So what are those, islands? Oceans? In fact, it doesn’t make any sense to classify landmasses as continents or islands based on the composition of the crust. “Continental crust” was named that because it makes up most of the continents; to work backward and classify islands as continents merely because they are made of the same kind of rock has no particular logic to it. It doesn’t mean that landmasses made of continental crust should be called continents. If you have “no patience with arbitrary classification schemes,” you’re not going to improve matters with the one you suggested. Confessions: First, I actually not only have patience for arbitrary classification schemes–I clearly love them! Second, as long as I’m being called on things like uplifted oceanic crust, I’ll also concede that large parts of the margins of continents are underlain by accreted material instead of “true” continental crust. So if you really want to hit me over the head with my own definitions, you’ll force me to make absurd conclusions such as “Oregon is not on a continent” and “Florida is actually ‘on’ Africa”. How about this for New Zealand, Madagascar, the Seychelles, and even Australia: Islands-fomerly-part-of-Pangea? They can be islands that woefully reminisce about the days when they were part of something really big. So, I yield. Just don’t tell my geography pals. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/26 "2008-12-23T00:00:57Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The ancients knew of five planets, No, they knew seven planets – the Sun, the Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. > [@](#): > > The first asteroids discovered were considered planets, as was the first Kuiper belt object, Pluto. As more and more such objects were discovered, astronomers tinkered with the definitions in order not to have “too many” planets, resulting in the recent demotion of Pluto. And the 19th-century demotion of Ceres. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/27 "2008-12-23T05:03:42Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > No, they knew seven planets – the Sun, the Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. Cite, please, that they referred to the Sun and Moon specifically as planets? The word is derived from the Greek _planetes asteres,_ or “wandering stars.” The Sun and Moon were not classified as stars, so they were not planets. Both were unique objects that also moved through the heavens. The planets differed from other stars mainly in the fact that they moved about. > [@](#): > > And the 19th-century demotion of Ceres. And Vesta, Juno, and Pallas as well. From [here](http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/minorplanets.php): > [@](#): > > The acceptance of the first four asteroids was so matter-of-fact that introductory texts such as First Steps to Astronomy and Geography (1828) lists the planets as, “Eleven: Mercury, Venus, the Earth, Mars, Vesta, Juno, Ceres, Pallas, Jupiter, Saturn, and Herschel [Uranus].” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/28 "2008-12-23T12:19:07Z")
> [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](#): > > Perhaps if we could officially lose the ‘island’ tag, folks wouldn’t turn up here on a week’s holiday with plans to drive coast-to-coast? (Not that this isn’t good for a laugh, mind.) Yes. I’ve just driven from Broome to Adelaide following the coast. It took us two and a half weeks (with plenty of stops) and we covered about 6400 kms. You know you’re traveling around a bloody big country when you feel like you’re getting close to your destination when the road sign says “Adelaide 1986 Km.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/29 "2008-12-24T19:36:05Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Cite, please, that they referred to the Sun and Moon specifically as planets? The word is derived from the Greek _planetes asteres,_ or “wandering stars.” Or simply _planetois_, “wanderers”. Though my English copy of the _Syntaxis_ uses the phrase “the sun, the moon, and the planets”, a simple Google on “the seven planets” turns up a host of pre-Copernican instances of “planet” being used inclusively. > [@](#): > > And Vesta, Juno, and Pallas as well. Galileo, Huygens, and Cassini originally referred to their newly discovered satellites of Jupiter and Saturn as “planets”, too. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/30 "2008-12-25T06:16:21Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > Though my English copy of the _Syntaxis_ uses the phrase “the sun, the moon, and the planets”, a simple Google on “the seven planets” turns up a host of pre-Copernican instances of “planet” being used inclusively. Sorry, I’m not seeing “a host of pre-Copernican instances” on that search, at least not on the first few pages. In any case, my original statement that “the ancients knew of five planets” was not incorrect, since a distinction was frequently made between the Sun, the Moon, and the five _planetes asteres_. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/31 "2009-01-15T08:05:34Z")
Once you guys settle this you can move on to Pluto, planet or not? 🙂 Also what is an Island? A land mass surround by all sides on water. I mean if you look at the Eastern USA. It has the Atlantic on the East, the Gulf of Mexico on the South, the Mississippi river and the Illinois river up to Chicago (through the Chicago River) and Lake Michigan to the West. Then you have the rest of the Great Lakes and the St Lawrence River till you’re back again at the Atlantic. It’s surrounded by water on all sides 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/32 "2009-01-15T15:45:32Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > I mean if you look at the Eastern USA. It has the Atlantic on the East, the Gulf of Mexico on the South, the Mississippi river and the Illinois river up to Chicago (through the Chicago River) and Lake Michigan to the West. Then you have the rest of the Great Lakes and the St Lawrence River till you’re back again at the Atlantic. It’s surrounded by water on all sides > > 🙂 Maybe there should be something in there about the water being present in naturally occurring bodies of water. Otherwise, anytime a medieval lord put a moat around his castle, he was creating an island. In this particular example, the canal connecting the Chicago and Illinois rivers isn’t naturally occurring. > [@](#): > > Once you guys settle this you can move on to Pluto, planet or not? > > 🙂 Depends on your definition of _planet_. One could always define planets the way we define continents: by listing the things that have been considered continents for long enough that we’re used to that particular list, and defining those as the complete set. Europe, Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Australia; Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. There’s really nothing wrong with defining either set by that means. It’s completely arbitrary, but it suffices. The problem with both continents and planets is coming up with a less arbitrary, more justifiable rule that agrees with our lists. (And the reason that’s the problem is that people are attached to the lists, but scientists tend to want something less arbitrary and more justifiable. Coming up with a less arbitrary rule is easy; just using the list is easy.) How do you come up with a rule that includes Pluto without including a bunch of similarly-sized Kuiper Belt Objects? And while there’s no problem in excluding other things you want to exclude from the set of continents by excluding Greenland, it’s still somewhat arbitrary that we’ve placed the cutoff between Australia and Greenland. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/33 "2009-02-17T03:35:04Z")
[never mind] ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/34 "2009-02-17T14:01:42Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Maybe there should be something in there about the water being present in naturally occurring bodies of water. Otherwise, anytime a medieval lord put a moat around his castle, he was creating an island. I’d say he was. Not an oceanic island of course, unless it happened to be in Panama 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/35 "2009-02-21T01:33:10Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > Losing the island tag wouldn’t help … they still come to Canada and expect to drive from coast to coast. LOL There’s nothing stopping you from driving coast to coast in Canada. It simply [takes a while](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=St+Johns,+NL&daddr=Thunder+Bay,+ON+to:Calgary,+AB+to:Tofino,+BC&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=47.576526,-89.296875&sspn=38.424888,84.550781&ie=UTF8&ll=48.458352,-89.296875&spn=37.81962,84.550781&t=h&z=4). ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/36 "2009-02-21T21:21:54Z")
> [@Yossarian](#): > > (big snip) > And I will concede that you are correct in that my way does result in some absurd continent-assigning. Most of my recent work has been on an island in the Mediterranean (PDF of preprints available via e-mail by request!) that is “in” Europe–Italian is the language, the Euro is the currency–but is definitely “on” Africa. Geographically, it’s European. Geologically, it’s Africa. But it’s terribly, terribly, terribly small and completely surrounded by water–so where ever it is, it sure as hell is an island! Malta? ---
**Author:** ![Westrogothia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@Westrogothia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Westrogothia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/37 "2009-02-22T23:32:37Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Malta? I think they speak english on malta, not italian. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/38 "2009-02-23T05:59:21Z")
I think they speak Maltese and English; Maltese isn’t anything like Italian. Maybe he means Pantelleria or Lampedusa? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/39 "2009-02-23T07:21:07Z")
It’s suffering from Pluto syndrome. ---
**Author:** ![Yossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/9de0a6/32.png) [@Yossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yossarian)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180/40 "2009-02-23T13:59:26Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > I think they speak Maltese and English; Maltese isn’t anything like Italian. > > Maybe he means Pantelleria or Lampedusa? Pantelleria it is! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islands-must-be-smaller-than-continents/477180.md?page=1)