# Isn’t it contradictory to believe there are no absolutes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805 "2000-09-27T20:59:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Boob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@Crazy\_Boob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Boob)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/1 "2000-09-27T20:59:37Z")
After all, if there were no absolutes, then one could not be absolutely certain that there were none. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/2 "2000-09-27T21:07:27Z")
Or, like I’ve always said: There’s an exception to every rule. Even this one. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/3 "2000-09-27T21:27:30Z")
I’ve found that when there are no absolutes, Stoli is a more than adequate substitute. * * * Yer pal, Satan - Commissioner, [The Teeming Minions](http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com/full/show?lid=39428&page=leaguehome) \*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Five months, two weeks, four days, 19 hours, 30 minutes and 56 seconds. 6872 cigarettes not smoked, saving $859.06. Extra life with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 2 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes. \***“I’m a big Genesis fan.”-David B. _(Amen, brother!)_** \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/4 "2000-09-27T21:27:53Z")
\*\*Crazy Boob wrote: After all, if there were no absolutes, then one could not be absolutely certain that there were none.\*\* What type of absolutes are you talking about? Moral? Physical? Something else entirely? For physical ones, you can’t create mass/energy out of nothing nor can mass/energy be destroyed. Going faster than _c_ in a vacuum is pretty futile and you can’t get colder than zero degress K. As for moral absolutes, can you give me an example? A moral that fits all situation across all systems of morality? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/5 "2000-09-27T21:38:51Z")
**I am unequivocably against dogmatism!** – [Too much Coffee Man](http://www.tmcm.com) ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Malik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@Joe\_Malik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Malik)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/6 "2000-09-27T21:46:13Z")
You are constructing an explicit contradiction by allowing your statement to refer to itself. This sort of linguistic contradiction was first documented milennia ago by Epimenides the Cretan’s statement, “all Cretans are liars.” You can read a good exposition on the subject of logical paradoxes in Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas R. Hofstadter. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Boob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@Crazy\_Boob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Boob)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/7 "2000-09-27T21:50:24Z")
Freyr- It just a common generalization that nothing is univerally true, whether it be physical or abstract. A lot of people believe that nothing is true in all circumstnaces, but if that is true, then neither can that assumption be true. It’s a paradox. A moral absolute? Hmm… I’ll take a shot at it…I’ll even give you two: It is always wrong to torture someone for no reason or kill someone for the fun of it. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/8 "2000-09-27T21:57:38Z")
Well, if you say that it is absolutely true that there are no absolutes, then, yes, that’s a contradiction. However, one could simply say that the only absolute is that there are no other absolutes (or something of that nature). ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/9 "2000-09-27T22:24:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BlackKnight \* > **. . . one could simply say that the only absolute is that there are no other absolutes . . .** Well, sorry to repeat myself, but that’s exactly the point of the little saying I made up many years ago, posted above: _ **There’s an exception to every rule, including this one.** _ Or to wrap it tightly around your brain, the old cliche “There’s an exception to every rule” is true, without exception, which means of course that the cliche itself, being a rule, has an exception: itself. So in being true it proves itself untrue. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/10 "2000-09-27T23:59:29Z")
No it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Palm\_Cove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Palm\_Cove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palm_Cove)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/11 "2000-09-28T00:06:17Z")
So why is there only one monopolies commission? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/12 "2000-09-28T00:12:53Z")
Isn’t it contradictory to believe there are no absolutes? Logically, yes. Practically, no. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/13 "2000-09-28T00:47:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > _ **There’s an exception to every rule, including this one.** _ Sorry, but that’s a different statement than what I said. Saying that every rule has an exception is different from saying that all rules but one have exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/14 "2000-09-28T01:00:54Z")
Well, except that I didn’t say every rule has an exception; I said, as you did, that all rules but one–that one-have exceptions. It’s exception is that it _itself_ is the only rule that has no exception. It’s (don’t mean to state the obvious here) paradoxical in that it includes both your statement and mine, which are mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Boob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@Crazy\_Boob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Boob)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/15 "2000-09-28T01:34:16Z")
I don’t mean to be a jerk or anything, but I think that is a really stupid philosophy. That is, assuming that something is absolute as a means of expressing that nothing _else_ is absolute. It’s like an orator giving a speech about to audience about why oral communication does not exist…ok it’s probably not like that, but analogies are still fun to think of. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/16 "2000-09-28T02:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > **Well, except that I didn’t say every rule has an exception; I said, as you did, that all rules but one–that one-have exceptions.** I know I’m just a nitpicker and this isn’t really an important topic, but I can’t let this go. What you said was: There’s an exception to every rule, including this one. This is obviously saying that every rule has an exception. I said that: The only absolute is that there are no other absolutes. The two are completely different statements. One claims that all rules have an exception, the other claims that not all rules have exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/17 "2000-09-28T13:23:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BlackKnight \* > \*\*What you said was: _There’s an exception to every rule, including this one._ > This is obviously saying that every rule has an exception. > \*\* No, I believe that you are misinterpreting it; you restated the portion prior to the comma, but ignored the portion following the comma. The portion prior to the comma (_There’s an exception to every rule_) means that there are no absolutes. The portion following the comma (_including this one_) means that the statement about “no absolutes” does have exceptions. In other words: **The vast majority of rules do have exceptions, but there are a small number of rules which do _not_ have exceptions.** I challenge you all to show any internal contradiction in that statement. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/18 "2000-09-28T15:38:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crazy Boob \* > **I don’t mean to be a jerk or anything, but I think that is a really stupid philosophy. . . .** I really think we’ve come to depend way too much on the smileys. How could you possibly interpret my above exercise in mobius “logic” as disagreeing with you, you crazy Boob? And Keeve, my bumper sticker cannot be rephrased as “The vast majority of rules do have exceptions, but there are a small number of rules which do not have exceptions.” It cannot be rephrased at all; by trying to temper it to actual practicality you miss my point. And Black Knight, this is absolutely true: “The two are completely different statements.” That’s why they call it a paradox. ---
**Author:** ![knappy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@knappy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knappy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/19 "2000-09-28T17:30:28Z")
Hello, math police? I’d like to report a slew of self-referential statements over in SDMB Great Debates. Yes, Russel’s Paradox; that’s right. Thanks, officer. \ You guys are so busted. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Malik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@Joe\_Malik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Malik)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805/20 "2000-09-28T19:26:58Z")
**knappy:** Good call. I wish I’d noticed it myself. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isn-t-it-contradictory-to-believe-there-are-no-absolutes/34805.md?page=2)