# Isn't accusing a poster of being a "libeler" a personal attack? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 28, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722 "2014-08-28T04:09:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/1 "2014-08-28T04:09:11Z")
In the tread regarding the Dutchman who’d been given a medal by the Israeli government who returned it six members of his family by marriage were killed in a strike targeting a Hamas militant, Second Stone and Tomndeb got into a bit of an argument over some rather severe charges put forth by Christopher Hedges, a former reporter for the NYT now turned polemicist. I put up a post pointing out that Hedges had history of making extreme charges that didn’t seem to be supported by logic and also that Hedges had had his integrity questioned since there did seem to be very credible evidence of hike being guilty of libel. Here is my post: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17668312&postcount=223](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17668312&postcount=223) Tom understandably referred to my post in his response to Second Stone, and Second Stone decided to make some rather vicious personal attacks on me, which seemed extremely odd in a thread where I’d been implicitly accused of being too sympathetic to the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > The Second Stone > Now, when one of the usual libelers of people critical of reporting unfavorable things about Israel comes up with the usual sort of scurrilous insults to his character, you decide to change your mind. I think most objective observers would agree this is a comment on my character not on my post. Beyond that, The Second Stone was already mod noted earlier in the thread for making personal attacks against Magiver. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17666168&postcount=187](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17666168&postcount=187) It seems to me that he should receive at least a warning for continuing to engage in such behavior after being mod noted and also because it does seem to me that accusing someone of being a “libeler” is almost synonymous with accusing them of lying. One last thing, I don’t want this to come across as accusatory against either Tom or the mods since The Second Stone in this thread is making much harsher personal attacks against Tom, accusing him of being a “genocide denier”. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/2 "2014-08-28T04:41:58Z")
I edited your first link to make it work, it wasn’t due to you having misplaced an extra letter there. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/3 "2014-08-28T04:47:08Z")
Ibn - I’m not going to discuss moderation, only the English language. “Libeler” is typically a pretty mild insult, FWIW. But I see in the thread that Second Stone drops it about 30 times, once with a reference to Goebbels. So I can see how it could get on your nerves. Generally speaking though, (and IMHO), I think problem posters should be dealt with in the pit a couple of times, before requesting ATMB mod action. Not incidentally, it has never been a requirement that pit attacks be vitriolic. You can, if you choose, politely pit somebody. Examples, of course, are always appreciated. That’s not a recommendation to the mods, btw: it’s a recommendation to posters. As you know Second Stone is currently being pitted in the somewhat ironically entitled,“tomndebb is a genocide denier” pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/4 "2014-08-28T04:50:44Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > I edited your first link to make it work, it wasn’t due to you having misplaced an extra letter there. Oops, my mistake! Thanks for the edit! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/5 "2014-08-28T10:15:03Z")
Are you actually being accused of being a libeler there, or merely changing your mind because of something some unspecified libelers did or said? I think that distinction probably makes a difference - or at least I believe it would in the case of ‘liar’ rules - for example (in a hypothetical scenario where someone appears to have changed their mind to apparently side with creationsts): Acceptable (I think): “Creationists are a bunch of liars and now you’re saying you agree with them!” (because it doesn’t accuse anyone specific of being a liar) Not acceptable: “You’re a liar like all the creationists you now seem to agree with” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/6 "2014-08-28T10:44:53Z")
I would say that calling someone a libeler is at least as strong as calling them a liar. A libeler is lying (in a publication) with the intention of causing harm. So at least the rules for liar should work. That said, I am unsure the OP is actually being called a libeler or being accused of libel (the equivalent of accusing someone of lying, also against the rules.) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/7 "2014-08-28T11:15:29Z")
**Ibn Warraq** , just to be clear, you’re asking why **Second Stone** wasn’t reprimanded? I’m going to defer to the Great Debate moderators, because the standards for that forum are somewhat different from other forums. I just wanted to let you know that the thread has been seen and is being discussed, it might take some time for a decision. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/8 "2014-08-28T11:53:02Z")
Ibn- I’ve reviewed the post in question, both at the time and again today. My initial - and ongoing - belief is that the post labelled others as libelers and not you. The Second Stone used the word ‘libeler’ to describe others commenting on an outside column. The rest of his post is a straightforward dissection of the arguments in the thread and would certainly fall under the ‘posts not posters’ concept. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/9 "2014-08-28T12:48:48Z")
Hasn’t Shodan been mod-noted/warned for his old\* “the usual suspects” thing? You know: Leftie: Blah-blah-blah-point XYZ Shodan: I see the usual suspects are making their “Blah-blah-blah-point XYZ” argument again. This is stupid. Mod: Mod Note/Warning for Shodan. If so, then what TSS did is exactly the same thing\*\*, IMO \*I haven’t seen him use it in a while, so he might have retired it. \*\*To the inevitable person decides to nitpick…“exact same thing” is a figure of speech and does not mean “precise to the subatomic level”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/10 "2014-08-28T14:18:32Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Hasn’t Shodan been mod-noted/warned for his old\* “the usual suspects” thing? You know: > > Leftie: Blah-blah-blah-point XYZ > Shodan: I see the usual suspects are making their “Blah-blah-blah-point XYZ” argument again. This is stupid. > Mod: Mod Note/Warning for Shodan. > > If so, then what TSS did is exactly the same thing\*\*, IMO > > \*I haven’t seen him use it in a while, so he might have retired it. > \*\*To the inevitable person decides to nitpick…“exact same thing” is a figure of speech and does not mean “precise to the subatomic level”. No warnings for it, nor even Mod Notes that I recall. I am a little more concerned with the apparent conflict between **tomndebb** ’s earlier ruling that one may not repeatedly attack the truth of a poster’s allegations, because that amounts to an accusation of lying\*, vs. his repeated use of the “you’re making it up” in response to **The Second Stone**.\*\* Is “You’re making it up” OK? Would it be OK used by a poster, several times over? Regards, Shodan \*I won’t bother with a cite. That is what he saidt. \*\*See above. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/11 "2014-08-28T14:20:10Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Leftie: Blah-blah-blah-point XYZ > Shodan: I see the usual suspects are making their “Blah-blah-blah-point XYZ” argument again. This is stupid. > Mod: Mod Note/Warning for Shodan. > > If so, then what TSS did is exactly the same thing\*\*, IMO Actually, i would argue that, in the context of board rules, calling people “libelers” is worse than calling them “usual suspects.” One important difference is that a libel is something that is both defamatory AND untrue. So, calling someone a libeler is effectively calling them a liar—which is a no-no outside the Pit—while calling them a “usual suspect” implies a sort of herd mentality without necessarily being an accusation of lying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/12 "2014-08-28T14:21:27Z")
You can “make things up” without lying. It’s often an act of laziness-- not actually checking if something is true or not and being so wedded to one’s own biases that one believes it must be true. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/13 "2014-08-28T14:23:38Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Ibn- > > I’ve reviewed the post in question, both at the time and again today. My initial - and ongoing - belief is that the post labelled others as libelers and not you. The Second Stone used the word ‘libeler’ to describe others commenting on an outside column. The rest of his post is a straightforward dissection of the arguments in the thread and would certainly fall under the ‘posts not posters’ concept. To be clear, this is the post in question, right? Where he directly calls a poster a libeler? I have bolded the bits in question. > [@Man returns Holocaust medal](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/269): > > Originally, you said Hedges had an excellent reputation. Now, when one of the usual libelers of people critical of reporting unfavorable things about Israel comes up with the usual sort of scurrilous insults to his character, you decide to change your mind. > > You say you question my judgment. So be it. I’d be offended if you thought I judged things the way you do. Yours always interprets away any criminal activity of the government of Israel by attacking the credibility and judgment of others, all others, respected or unknown. > > So what do I think of your judgment? I don’t respect it. In fact, I’m in contempt of it because of the way you dismiss anything that doesn’t agree with you and join in the piling on of the libeling. I want to make clear, I’m criticizing your judgment, not you personally. > > First you assert that no such activity as Hedges had reported, but you did not yet know about existed. You answered my question as to whether your “no it is not” referred to legality or the machine gunning by saying the machine gunning never happened.You had and have no evidence to prove that it didn’t except a bizarre belief that the IDF couldn’t possibly do such a thing, putting aside everything human beings know about armed conflict and atrocities. You choose the believe **the libels of someone whose consistent record on the SDMB is to libel people critical of Israel.** When confronted with the Hedges report, you conceded (which you now take back) that he was generally reliable, but he was wrong here (not maybe he was wrong, but wrong) due to poor observing. \*\*When the poster you mention collects all the libels around the internet about Mr. Hedges, \*\*collected for the people who have been embarrassed by his reporting, you fully credit that, even though it is, on its face motivated to smear. I put in several reports of similar incidents, and you poo-poo each one as not being exactly the same or corroborated. Even though they are mostly the same. No such report is going to be corroborated by anyone you would ever put credence in because if they corroborated, you would put the in your unreliable column as you always do. No report from a family or non-famous witnesses would get the slightest credence from you, as we have seen you dismiss them. > > You then dismiss Mr. Hedges Pulitzer credentials as meaningless. It is not a stamp of truth, but it is stamp of professional excellence, something the people libeling Mr. Hedges don’t have. \*\*There is a reason that I have not responded in years to the poster you have referred to. He is a one sided advocate and a libeler on behalf of Israel. \*\* > > Israel has blockaded the citizens of Gaza. Israel has objected to any nation recognizing a government in Gaza. Israel collectively punishes in Gaza, destroying whole buildings to get to one person. Israel shoots at ambulances. Israel bulldozes homes and protestors. Israel affords none of the people killed or deprived of property any kind of trial. Israel bulldozes the homes of relatives of suspected terrorists without trial. Israeli attacks kill thousands upon thousands. Israel blames this on an organization they label as criminal (Hamas), and then claims that Hamas is supported by the people and properly elected, but refuses to recognize as a government and insists, apparently correctly, that no other government in the world should recognize it as a real government. Based on the criminal tying of Hamas to the people, Israel bombs the people. And you deny this is genocide. That is your right. > > You’ve made clear my judgment means nothing to you, but I judge you to be someone who is only an advocate in an argument, not someone open to being persuaded. You’ve taken the side of the rich and powerful and the authoritarian oppressors. History shows this is usually the profitable and winning side. > > You’ve denied genocide here, I want to make clear that I consider that no different than a Holocaust denier except that in this case there are thousands of prospective deaths and that Holocaust deniers are usually deeply mentally disturbed. You are clearly not suffering from mental illness. I call it willful blindness. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/14 "2014-08-28T14:27:09Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Hasn’t Shodan been mod-noted/warned for his old\* “the usual suspects” thing? He has not been warned for that. I couldn’t say about mod notes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/15 "2014-08-28T14:38:25Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > To be clear, this is the post in question, right? Where he directly calls a poster a libeler? I have bolded the bits in question. THere is no ambiguity there. And I agree that “libeler” is worse than “liar”. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/16 "2014-08-28T14:52:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He has not been warned for that. I couldn’t say about mod notes. I though he had been but since you and he agree, apparently I’m wrong. (Shocking I know! Mark this day on your calendars! 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/17 "2014-08-28T15:00:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You can “make things up” without lying. It’s often an act of laziness-- not actually checking if something is true or not and being so wedded to one’s own biases that one believes it must be true. I assume you agree, therefore, that repeated use of the phrase in GD would be A-OK from a poster, or a mod posting as a poster. It would be interesting if a mod could confirm. I am hoping for a clarification of an earlier thread I started. That one petered out without answering why ‘attacking the truth’ of a post was an accusation of lying, whereas saying of a post “that’s not true” is explicitly mentioned in the GD sticky as being “what GD is all about” and is therefore not ‘attacking the truth of a post’ and OK. ISTM that “you are making it up” is much more an accusation of lying than an mere attack on the truth of a statement, but I am not a mod. I am hoping therefore for a clear ruling from the mods - is “you’re making it up” OK in Great Debates coming from a poster? Yes or no? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/18 "2014-08-28T15:04:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume you agree, therefore, that repeated use of the phrase in GD would be A-OK from a poster, or a mod posting as a poster. I hope so. I use that phrase frequently and (I hope) accurately. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/19 "2014-08-28T15:19:24Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > To be clear, this is the post in question, right? Where he directly calls a poster a libeler? I have bolded the bits in question. OK, that doesn’t seem nearly as ambiguous to me as it did in the quoted segment appearing in the OP. My post upthread is now moot, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/20 "2014-08-28T16:13:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume you agree, therefore, that repeated use of the phrase in GD would be A-OK from a poster, or a mod posting as a poster. It would be interesting if a mod could confirm. > > I am hoping for a clarification of an earlier thread I started. That one petered out without answering why ‘attacking the truth’ of a post was an accusation of lying, whereas saying of a post “that’s not true” is explicitly mentioned in the GD sticky as being “what GD is all about” and is therefore not ‘attacking the truth of a post’ and OK. > > ISTM that “you are making it up” is much more an accusation of lying than an mere attack on the truth of a statement, but I am not a mod. > > I am hoping therefore for a clear ruling from the mods - is “you’re making it up” OK in Great Debates coming from a poster? Yes or no? > > Regards, > Shodan I think you’re being unfair to Tom. He only started using the phrase “making it up” because Stone had been accusing others of “making stuff up”. Now personally I’d rather he just told Stone to knock it off, but I think Tom’s feeling was that if Stone wants to play the game, that’s how it’s played. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722.md?page=2)