# Isn't accusing a poster of being a "libeler" a personal attack? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 28, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722 "2014-08-28T04:09:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/21 "2014-08-28T16:21:53Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** , just to be clear, you’re asking why **Second Stone** wasn’t reprimanded? I’m going to defer to the Great Debate moderators, because the standards for that forum are somewhat different from other forums. I just wanted to let you know that the thread has been seen and is being discussed, it might take some time for a decision. Thank you very much. > [@](#): > > Ibn- > > I’ve reviewed the post in question, both at the time and again today. My initial - and ongoing - belief is that the post labelled others as libelers and not you. The Second Stone used the word ‘libeler’ to describe others commenting on an outside column. The rest of his post is a straightforward dissection of the arguments in the thread and would certainly fall under the ‘posts not posters’ concept. Jonathan, I’ll admit that if you look just at the paragraph I quoted it’s understandable that you might think it’s a bit ambiguous as to who Stone is referring to, but when you look at the whole post with the bolded sections as Raventhief did, I think it’s extremely clear that I’m the one being referred to. In retrospect, I should have done what Raventhief did and quote the whole post and bold the relevant parts. I think you’d agree if you review Raventhief’s post on this thread there’s really no room for ambiguity and that Stone did clearly violate the rules in a thread in which he’d already been mod noted for personal insults and given a warning for calling another poster “cowardly”. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/22 "2014-08-28T17:39:21Z")
All right, Ibn, I’ll think on it. I think there’s space for interpretation there but I’ll give it a review. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/23 "2014-08-28T18:11:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think you’re being unfair to Tom. He only started using the phrase “making it up” because Stone had been accusing others of “making stuff up”. > > Now personally I’d rather he just told Stone to knock it off, but I think Tom’s feeling was that if Stone wants to play the game, that’s how it’s played. Which would indicate even more strongly that it is not against the rules, and that “you are making it up” is not against the rules. If it were, **The Second Stone** would have been Mod Noted rather than imitated. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/24 "2014-08-28T21:21:18Z")
Wikipedia isn’t the final authority on such matters, but it appears that defamation (of which libel is a sub-category) doesn’t necessarily imply lying. It does involve false statements generally groundless or irrational criticism. And I understand that malicious intent plays a role. But I don’t think that making knowingly false statements is _necessarily_ an aspect of libel, though it might imply libel if it occurred and the statements harmed reputation. Also, standards for libel vary widely throughout the world. > **[Defamation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation)** > > Defamation is the act of communicating to a third party false statements about a person, place, or thing that results in damage to its reputation. It can be spoken (slander) or written (libel). It constitutes a tort or a crime. The legal definition of defamation and related acts as well as the ways they are dealt with can vary greatly between countries and jurisdictions (what exactly they must consist of, whether they constitute crimes or not, and to what extent proving the alleged facts is a FTR only. IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/25 "2014-08-29T02:05:31Z")
I’m not a lawyer, but I have been a journalist. An accusation of libel ranks with plagiarism and outright fabrication as one of the strongest insults. For a news organization, it means “time to call the lawyers.” Frankly, I’m surprised the mods even have to discuss whether it merits a warning. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/26 "2014-08-29T03:33:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think you’re being unfair to Tom. He only started using the phrase “making it up” because Stone had been accusing others of “making stuff up”. No. I was out of line in trying to parody The Second Stone–particularly when he appears impervious to recognizing parody or accepting it as instructive. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/27 "2014-08-29T11:52:00Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I’m not a lawyer, but I have been a journalist. An accusation of libel ranks with plagiarism and outright fabrication as one of the strongest insults. For a news organization, it means “time to call the lawyers.” Frankly, I’m surprised the mods even have to discuss whether it merits a warning. Clearly, we’ve been different kinds of journalists. Covering politics, I was accused of libel every single week. Plagiarism is much worse in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/28 "2014-08-29T12:00:24Z")
Right, having considered overnight, I’m going to split the baby in two, here. The Second Stone used libel at the beginning of the post in question in a way that I find acceptable. He referred to others off board as libelers. It’s an - unfortunately - accepted terminology that is used in the emotionally charged debates surrounding the holocaust and other genocidal forms. I should point out that for my own sake, seeing a person use that form of argument prejudices me against accepting their statements at face value. However, there seems to be room for interpretation in the latter instances of The Second Stone using the word ‘libel’ in the post in question. I’m going to Mod Note him, both because I see both sides and for the several days since the post was written. I am extremely reluctant to issue official warnings several days following a post because at that point the thread has moved on. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/29 "2014-08-29T12:06:29Z")
On the other topic… “You’re making that up” is, to my mind, equivalent to “you’re lying/you’re a liar/what-have-you”. I say this because the statement makes two assertions: 1. The poster to which it is directed is stating something untrue. 2. Further, the poster is doing so willfully and with intent. So don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/30 "2014-08-29T12:42:29Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > On the other topic… > > “You’re making that up” is, to my mind, equivalent to “you’re lying/you’re a liar/what-have-you”. > > I say this because the statement makes two assertions: > > 1. The poster to which it is directed is stating something untrue. > 2. Further, the poster is doing so willfully and with intent. > > So don’t do it. Thank you for clearing this up. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/31 "2014-08-29T13:38:39Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > On the other topic… > > “You’re making that up” is, to my mind, equivalent to “you’re lying/you’re a liar/what-have-you”. > > I say this because the statement makes two assertions: > > 1. The poster to which it is directed is stating something untrue. > 2. Further, the poster is doing so willfully and with intent. > > So don’t do it. I strongly disagree. Supposing I were to say: “Atheists just don’t see the value that religion has in society.” I believe that to be true (so I’m not lying) but I just haven’t done any research to see what atheists actually think. I assume that my own personal bias is a fact. I “made that up” because I can’t see past my own preconceptions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/32 "2014-08-29T14:15:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I strongly disagree. Supposing I were to say: “Atheists just don’t see the value that religion has in society.” I believe that to be true (so I’m not lying) but I just haven’t done any research to see what atheists actually think. I assume that my own personal bias is a fact. I “made that up” because I can’t see past my own preconceptions. To add a bit more… “That’s something you made up” is, to me, equivalent to saying “That is not true”. Neither of those statements is the same as “That’s a lie”, since they don’t have to mean that the poster deliberately tried to deceive. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/33 "2014-08-29T15:20:26Z")
Someone can “make something up” that happens to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/34 "2014-08-29T16:17:28Z")
Nm - the Mods Have Spoken (_ominous drum roll_) and I would rather have a clear guideline even it is somewhat arbitrary than a murkier one, even if I agree with it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/35 "2014-08-29T17:47:34Z")
The will always be ambiguity, of course. And context matters so each instance may not be considered a warnable offense. Too many other things go into it. Context of discussion, of posters and so forth. And of course different mods may see things in different ways. On the examples you lay out, Mace, I’d say they don’t apply. It is possible to believe something and be wrong. That doesn’t mean a person has ‘made up’ a fact. They may be operating on the best information they have. They haven’t ‘made it up’, they’re simply wrong or misled or misinformed or whatnot. ‘Making something up’ definitely implies an act of commision, not ommission, and I’d encourage everyone to treat the phrase that way. And in no way do I agree with “You made that up” being equal to “That’s not true.” Again, one allows for bad intent, while the other allows for honest mistake. Bone, as for your contention that someone can ‘make something up’ and it be true, certainly. But it’s something I don’t hope to ever see in Great Debates. Ideally, posters should be providing cites for their assertions, not making them up and hoping for the best. That smacks of the whole ‘My post is my cite’ nonsense. That’s rightfully derided by most debators. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/36 "2014-08-29T18:06:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Nm - the Mods Have Spoken (_ominous drum roll_) and I would rather have a clear guideline even it is somewhat arbitrary than a murkier one, even if I agree with it. > > Regards, > Shodan Yeah, that’s fine. I probably shouldn’t have said “strongly” disagree, because it’s really not that important. If we can’t say “you made that up”, then I’ll just say “that’s not true” in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/37 "2014-08-29T19:20:10Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > The will always be ambiguity, of course. And context matters so each instance may not be considered a warnable offense. Too many other things go into it. Context of discussion, of posters and so forth. And of course different mods may see things in different ways. Context matters a lot. Sometimes it’s pretty obvious to all that a poster is just pulling stuff out of his posterior. Sometimes it’s helpful to note that a poster isn’t especially careful in documenting his claims with citations. Then again, I can also imagine cases where “You just made that up,” is tantamount to an accusation of lying about facts. So, yes, I agree that context matters and that this shouldn’t be a hard and fast rule. It’s too easy to game: like other clear guidelines it’s not preferable for that reason. Otherwise you just enable envelope pushers who make short, uncited, unsubstantiated and intentionally provocative commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/38 "2014-08-30T03:28:55Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Right, having considered overnight, I’m going to split the baby in two, here. > > The Second Stone used libel at the beginning of the post in question in a way that I find acceptable. He referred to others off board as libelers. It’s an - unfortunately - accepted terminology that is used in the emotionally charged debates surrounding the holocaust and other genocidal forms. I should point out that for my own sake, seeing a person use that form of argument prejudices me against accepting their statements at face value. > > However, there seems to be room for interpretation in the latter instances of The Second Stone using the word ‘libel’ in the post in question. I’m going to Mod Note him, both because I see both sides and for the several days since the post was written. I am extremely reluctant to issue official warnings several days following a post because at that point the thread has moved on. Fair enough. That said, I reported the post as soon as I saw it which was the same day it was posted, waited a few days to see if the mods would respond and then decided to open a thread in ATMB three days ago when the mods didn’t respond. When then should I have opened the thread in ATMB to have a poster who clearly called me a liar and directly insulted me outside of the Pit? Should I have immediately opened a thread that same day? I’m sorry if I come across as fairly passive aggressive but you seem to be saying that because I waited to see if the mods would respond after I reported the post that Second Stone doesn’t get a warning for a post that by your own admission clearly merits a warning either because you didn’t look at the full post when it was reported or because I didn’t immediately open a thread in ATMB. Anyway I opened the thread in ATMB on Wednesday regarding a post from Sunday. Is three days really too long to complain about a warning not being issued for a post? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/39 "2014-09-22T04:03:35Z")
Apologies for bumping this thread, but I realized that I have yet to receive a response to what seems to me, like a perfectly reasonable request. I was explicitly accused of being a liar outside of the Pit. I immediately reported the infraction, sat back and awaited action by the mods. I felt that it would be improper for me to not give the mods adequate time to respond and so waited three days before opening the thread in ATMB. I’ve since been informed that I waited too long and as a result even though I was accused of being a liar no warning would be issued to the person who did this. Fair enough. I was stupid and shouldn’t have waited three days after being insulted before opening a thread in ATMB, however I would appreciate some guidance on when to open a thread in ATMB when I’ve been insulted and reported the occurrence. If three days is too long, then what is the appropriate time to wait between reporting the offense and opening a thread in ATMB. Should I wait 1 hour, 6 hours, one day, two days? And BTW, I realize that this post may come across as really passive aggressive, so if the response is “three days is probably the time you should await between reporting a post and opening a thread in ATMB about it because the mods are stretched thin, aren’t being paid for this job, get lots of reports, and are human, this particular instance was just a really unlucky confluence of events for you” then I’ll accept that and say I understand. I certainly have utterly no reason to think the mods have any reason to want to screw me or protect Second Stone nor do I even recall ever getting in a fight with TSS or anything that would explain his asinine hatred of myself. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722/40 "2014-09-22T20:30:59Z")
This is a good question. On the one hand, you would like to report the post as you are supposed to and then give the mods some reasonable time to react. On the other hand, if no results are imminent, you would like to know that, and if protesting the mod inaction is relevant (as this case), you would like to do it in a timely manner. Failure to get the mods to review the situation fast enough means that too much time has passed in the mods eyes to go back and award warnings. This is a mean dilemma. Of course, letting that person slide with a mod note because the mod action came so late is something you can just accept, but it sure does rankle that you tried to get timely notice and the mods bungled the job. Perhaps in your reporting the post, try highlighting the appropriate text more clearly to draw attention? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-accusing-a-poster-of-being-a-libeler-a-personal-attack/696722.md?page=3)