# Isn't "assuming \[someone's\] gender" simply the practical thing to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869 "2017-05-04T18:52:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/44 "2017-05-05T12:46:40Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > This is the kind of thing Liberals worry about while at the same time wondering how Trump could possibly have been elected. Meanwhile, from the actual liberals: > [@BigT](#): > > The idea of people going around saying “did you just assume my gender?” is a shitty meme that may have some tiny, tiny basis in reality, but it is so far from that that it’s basically a strawman. I’ve never seen it outside of a context of making fun of those “SJWs” or whatever term they want to use. > > In reality, if someone presents in a gender-typical fashion, it is indeed practical to, when necessary, refer to them by the gender they are presenting. The assumption is that genderqueer individuals rarely go all out one way or the other. And, if they do, they understand there may be confusion, and accept it while clarifying when they get a chance. > > However, if someone is androgynous, either showing no markers or mixing markers, then there’s nothing wrong with just using singular “they,” rather than bothering to guess. > > (I will say that insisting on atypical pronouns is a big much, and you’d better be prepared for people who have been told about them to slip up. Heck, people may just use he or she reflexively without actually judging your gender, just because it’s how their brain works. I know I tend to use “she” for not-clearly-male.) > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I have literally not once seen anything along the lines of “did you just assume my gender?” as anything _but_ a joke at the expense of “overly offended tumblrinas” (whom I have never seen _use_ the statement in anything but an ironic manner). Because it’s an asshole thing to say. I suppose “Trump supporters don’t listen to liberals, no matter how much sense they make” is one reason he got elected… ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/45 "2017-05-05T13:02:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I have a fairly soft voice, more so when I was younger, and I got misgendered on the phone a lot, as people called me “ma’am.” I vacillated between ignoring it and issuing a quick correction: “Sir, not ma’am,” I’d say. No reason at all to get fussed over it. And I have a fairly deep voice, so I’m routinely addressed as “sir” by random telemarketers. I used to correct them, but I’ve stopped. I realized I don’t care enough about these people for it to matter how they address me, so long as they are polite. I should maybe mention that the reason I frequently misgender people is that many of my friends have recently changed their preferred pronouns. And I’m old enough to be stuck in my ways, and often slip and use the old ones. (I’m better with new names, for whatever weird cognitive reason.) Somehow, these people tolerate me anyway. When I’m corrected, or when I realize I’ve goofed, I just say “oops” or “sorry”, and then say the same thing with the proper pronoun, and it’s never been a big deal. Yeah, liberals don’t send a lot of time worrying about this. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/46 "2017-05-05T13:03:45Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > **LHoD** is liberal, I believe boy howdy ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/47 "2017-05-05T14:13:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > boy howdy I didn’t want to mis-wing you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/48 "2017-05-05T14:17:43Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > … > Tigress, Jewess, Negress, aviatrix, baxter, seamster/seamstress – all those words are history. > … “Baxter” is such ancient history I had never heard the word before (except as a last name). Nor could I figure out for myself what it might mean. Having looked it up I’ll share that a “baxter” is a female baker. Who knew?! So there’s my new (albeit useless) word of the day. Thank you. > [@AK84](#): > > Well yes. But, strictly speaking “Constable” is not gender neutral, its male. I was a student in the U.K when they finally officially abolished the Women Police Constable title in full and many of the erstwhile WPC’s were livid, I knew one or two who would rip your throat out if you tried not to call them WPC. > > The problem is not gender or sexism. It’s the fact it’s become a race to the bottom to find a term which will offend the least people, an impossible task since we are humans, we can be offended by anything. I did not know that about “Constable”. Thank you. I agree with the rest and especially your punch line. Back towards the OP. Here [Douglas Hofstadter - Person Paper on Purity in Language](http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html) is a famous, fascinating (and IMO devastating) short essay written in 1985 by the academic and author [Douglas Hofstadter - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Hofstadter). In it he satirically pokes fun at the resistance of society to women’s lib in general and gender neutral occupational titles in particular. He does this by swapping black/white race terms for male/female sex terms. The effect is hugely topsy-turvy and shows us just how massively sexist our current (1980s) way of speaking would seem to a Martian observer. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/49 "2017-05-05T15:38:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If one is attending a gay pride rally, an LGBT conference, or other such event, then certainly there’s a high likelihood that one will interact with people who identify as trans/non-gender-specific, etc., but in everyday interaction (supermarket, gas station, airport, etc.), close to 99% of the time, someone who looks male will be male and someone who looks female will be female. > > In the latter case, isn’t it simply the practical thing to assume someone’s gender? Of course it is. It’s the way we humans have functioned for thousands and thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/50 "2017-05-06T03:41:42Z")
I have absolutely no problem with any “race to the bottom” in regards to offending as few people as possible. Avoiding offense when none is intended is a good goal. Taking everyone’s opinions into account instead of just those of the majority is a good thing. It means more happiness in the world with no real down side. It’s only a problem if you think a significant number of people only pretend to be offended. But I don’t. We just need to understand them and make them feel heard, even if we don’t agree with them. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/51 "2017-05-06T03:48:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Simply use their name instead of a pronoun? There is a coffee shop around the corner from where I live. They often hire people of…not sure what the term is…genderfluid? people. Totally fine. Great coffee shop. I went in one day and there was a sign on the counter admonishing people to not assume gender. The person behind the counter was not easily identifiable as male or female or whatever. Pissed me off though. I don’t have a gender neutral pronoun other than “you”. As I did not know their name “Hey you” seemed rude. Also, I am a customer and was being admonished from the get-go. I am more than happy to refer to you (general “you”) any way you prefer but you need to let me know. Otherwise I have to guess and if I do and get it wrong I do not expect to be berated for it. Just tell me your preference and all is fine. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/52 "2017-05-06T05:03:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I wouldn’t put it at not-having-to-assume-gender in 99% of cases. Maybe something like 40-60%, but the times we have to use gender would be a lot more than less-than-1%. > > Can you go through an entire day without ever using the words “he,” “she,” “his,” “her,” “son,” “daughter,” “brother,” “sister,” “aunt,” “uncle” “waiter,” “waitress”?" Many people would probably flub up even if there was a big monetary prize on the line to beat that challenge. > \* > “Dr. Smith has two children that look-like-boys-but-may-or-not-be-boys, so may-or-may-not-be-sons.”\* > > The avoidance of gender terms/words would bog down societal dialogue impossibly. It would make probability based questions in GQ even more fun. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/53 "2017-05-06T10:59:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There is a coffee shop around the corner from where I live. They often hire people of…not sure what the term is…genderfluid? people. Totally fine. Great coffee shop. > > I went in one day and there was a sign on the counter admonishing people to not assume gender. The person behind the counter was not easily identifiable as male or female or whatever. > > Pissed me off though. I don’t have a gender neutral pronoun other than “you”. As I did not know their name “Hey you” seemed rude. Also, I am a customer and was being admonished from the get-go. > > I am more than happy to refer to you (general “you”) any way you prefer but you need to let me know. Otherwise I have to guess and if I do and get it wrong I do not expect to be berated for it. Just tell me your preference and all is fine. Seeing as you would not use “he” or “she” when trying to get someone’s attention, I have to assume you are not talking about pronouns. (If you needed the pronoun, it would be singular “they,” BTW.) You’re saying you don’t know of gender neutral polite form of address. You only know “ma’am” and “sir.” And I’ll have to admit I don’t know an alternative to those. The closest I can give you is “gentleperson,” but that sounds like it would be the wrong register. I would suggest just saying “Excuse me” without the “sir” or “ma’am.” “Excuse me, I’d like to make an order.” Though, if someone does know an acceptable alternative to “ma’am” and “sir,” I’d love to hear about it. I do think it would be useful. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/54 "2017-05-06T12:21:02Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It would make probability based questions in GQ even more fun. Might make them real easy. e.g.: **Setup** : We’re given that the Smiths’ first child is an it. The second child is also known to be an it. **Question:** What are the odds the third is an it? **Answer:** 100%😃 ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/55 "2017-05-06T12:23:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There is a coffee shop around the corner from where I live. They often hire people of…not sure what the term is…genderfluid? people. Totally fine. Great coffee shop. > > I went in one day and there was a sign on the counter admonishing people to not assume gender. The person behind the counter was not easily identifiable as male or female or whatever. > > Pissed me off though. I don’t have a gender neutral pronoun other than “you”. As I did not know their name “Hey you” seemed rude. Also, I am a customer and was being admonished from the get-go. > > I am more than happy to refer to you (general “you”) any way you prefer but you need to let me know. Otherwise I have to guess and if I do and get it wrong I do not expect to be berated for it. Just tell me your preference and all is fine. “Hello. Could you make me my coffee? Thank you.” No need to use a gendered pronoun when ordering a coffee regardless of who serves you. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/56 "2017-05-06T12:39:58Z")
No, this is a real and significant problem for society. I can’t count the number of times I’ve tried to buy coffee, and despite being stood at the counter, needing to call out to the barista, and just “Excuse me” was inexplicably not enough. You just say something harmless like “Hey female girl lady vagina-person…” and they throw scalding coffee on you. Because they care that much about you mistaking their gender, and probably want to convert you to their deviant ways. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/57 "2017-05-06T15:59:25Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > “Hello. Could you make me my coffee? Thank you.” > > No need to use a gendered pronoun when ordering a coffee regardless of who serves you. And that is what I do. That said when the person is turned away from you saying, “Hello, hello, heeellllooo!” to get their attention feels rude. Plus I object to being taken to task if I mistakenly use the wrong pronoun. As I said if the person tells me how they prefer to be addressed I am happy to oblige but until they have told me I naturally fall back on a lifetime of making that guess and going with it. There is no animus if I make the wrong guess. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/58 "2017-05-06T16:05:28Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I can’t count the number of times I’ve tried to buy coffee, and despite being stood at the counter, needing to call out to the barista, and just “Excuse me” was inexplicably not enough. The problem with just and “excuse me” or “hello” is it is vague enough that the people whose attention you are trying to get don’t ‘click’ in their heads that it is them being addressed. Could be anyone in the coffee shop. “Sir” or “Miss” or “Ma’am” are common code words to get the attention of staff because it is unlikely you are addressing someone else that way in the shop. I was a waiter and “sir” always got my attention. “Hello” or “excuse me” not as much. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/59 "2017-05-06T17:26:30Z")
Excuse me. EXCUSE ME… I’d like to order a coffee, thank you. There’s a person of ambiguous gender presentation at my local coffee shop. I have idly wondered what that person’s gender is. But it has never once mattered to any of my transactions there. Fortunately, “you” is gender neutral in English. So I can say, “excuse me, this canister of cream is empty. Oh, thanks very much for fetching a new one. Oops, I’m in your way. Thank you again.” and never worry about that person’s gender. ---
**Author:** ![Mikeisskeptical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@Mikeisskeptical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikeisskeptical)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/60 "2017-05-06T18:26:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Though, if someone does know an acceptable alternative to “ma’am” and “sir,” I’d love to hear about it. I do think it would be useful. Living in the UK, it makes me wonder if the British aristocracy has considered titles for individuals of non-binary gender. Do you still have to be a sir or a dame if you’re knighted? Is there an alternative to lord/lady, duke/duchess etc? Not that I take anything the aristocracy says particularly seriously. It would be just interesting to see how they would react to being challenged on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/61 "2017-05-06T18:35:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > And that is what I do. > > That said when the person is turned away from you saying, “Hello, hello, heeellllooo!” to get their attention feels rude. > > Plus I object to being taken to task if I mistakenly use the wrong pronoun. As I said if the person tells me how they prefer to be addressed I am happy to oblige but until they have told me I naturally fall back on a lifetime of making that guess and going with it. There is no animus if I make the wrong guess. If you encounter this person often then maybe you could ask them their name. This way, next time they ignore you you could say “Pat! Could I have a coffee over here? Thank you!” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/62 "2017-05-06T18:52:11Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If you encounter this person often then maybe you could ask them their name. This way, next time they ignore you you could say “Pat! Could I have a coffee over here? Thank you!” My example was a first encounter. It got sorted later (actually because the person left…whether fired or quit I have no clue but it had nothing to do with me because my complaint never left my head at that time). ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-assuming-someones-gender-simply-the-practical-thing-to-do/785869/63 "2017-05-06T19:12:10Z")
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