# Isn't celebrating Kwanza just being anti-white? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2000, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146 "2000-12-25T03:36:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/121 "2001-01-05T06:13:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > > **What is wrong with the principle of celebrating one’s ethnicity/race/heritage?** > > Aboslutely nothing at all… now if certain people _cough_ Biggirl _cough_ would stop denying that it’s all inclusive, when it’s _hack_ rjung _hack_ obviously not, I can shut the hell up.\*\* Do the local Irish folks beat you up for celebrating St. Patricks day? Do the local Chinese folks beat you up for celebrating Chinese New Year? No? Then if ethnic holidays are inclusive, and you say Kwanzaa is an ethnic holiday, why are you saying that St. Patricks inclusive while Kwanzaa isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/122 "2001-01-05T06:58:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Do the local Irish folks beat you up for celebrating St. Patricks day? Do the local Chinese folks beat you up for celebrating Chinese New Year? > > No? > > Then if ethnic holidays are inclusive, and you say Kwanzaa is an ethnic holiday, why are you saying that St. Patricks inclusive while Kwanzaa isn’t? > \*\* Well, first off, I have absolutely no idea about Chinese New Year, even less than I know about Kwanzaa (which I have researched :P), so I’ll withhold my comments on that. St. Patrick’s Day… well, as zen101 said earlier in this thread, everyone is Irish on that day (except for the gays, which is exclusive). It has almost entirely lost its meaning as a Christian celebration, and has morphed into a “let’s get pissed” fest, so it’s not exclusive for religious reasons. And, Biggirl offered testimony saying, “I drink lot [sic] of green beer on St. Patrick’s Day and **the race police have never carted me away.** [emphasis in original]” I can only assume she’s black. I’m contending, and that’s my evidence (hehe), that St. Patrick’s Day is inclusive, except for the gays. You want to contend otherwise, feel free to post your counterevidence. If Kwanzaa wants to make an “Everyone is African” policy, they can go ahead and do so. But that would seem to go against the quote earlier from the Official Kwanzaa Website about mixing w/non-Africans, as a violation of self-determination. Quix P.S. Just as an aside, I’ve seen conflicting and ambiguous information… can white or Arab Africans celebrate their African heritage w/Kwanzaa? I don’t mean “can they” as in be the uncomfortable Dutch South African sitting in the back of the room; I mean celebrate as being the Egyptian dude helping to light the candles. Or do you have to be black, as well as African? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Crimson_Hipster_Dufuz)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/123 "2001-01-05T11:49:47Z")
> [@](#): > > P.S. Just as an aside, I’ve seen conflicting and ambiguous information… can white or Arab Africans celebrate their African heritage w/Kwanzaa? White people don’t have african heritage, at least not in recorded history. > [@](#): > > I don’t mean “can they” as in be the uncomfortable Dutch South African sitting in the back of the room; I mean celebrate as being the Egyptian dude helping to light the candles. Or do you have to be black, as well as African? I assume there are Kwanzaa celebrations you’d be prefectly welcome at regardless of your race, as long as you were basically pleasant, polite, that kind of thing. Who knows? It’s not like there are that many of them. If you feel excluded from Kwanzaa, I’d say that’s mostly your fault. Even relatively few black muslims take that Dr. Yakob thing too seriously, I’ve never met one who wasn’t happy to sell you a copy of the Final Call or a bean pie or some incense. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/124 "2001-01-05T16:42:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > Do the local Irish folks beat you up for celebrating St. Patricks day? Do the local Chinese folks beat you up for celebrating Chinese New Year? > > No? > > Then if ethnic holidays are inclusive, and you say Kwanzaa is an ethnic holiday, why are you saying that St. Patricks inclusive while Kwanzaa isn’t? When you get right down to it, St. Paddy’s Day isn’t inclusive. If you were to go into a real Irish pub (some do still exist in the U.S.) and demand the band play “The Unicorn Song”, you will get beaten up, and deservedly so. 🙂 Of course Kwanzaa isn’t inclusive, any more than any true ethnic celebration is. I live in an area of many ethnic parishes, who have festivals on the feast of their nation’s patron saint. I go, and they are a lot of fun, but they are about that ethnicity, and to that extent I am excluded. Fer instance, the bands are usually singing folk songs in the native language of that ethnicity. I don’t know the songs, and have no clue why the old babushka is crying as they are playing. Are they discriminating against me? No. They are having their celebration, and were kind enough to invite the public to partake. Exclusive does not mean discriminatory. Sua ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/125 "2001-01-05T18:40:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > **If you were to go into a real Irish pub (some do still exist in the U.S.) and demand the band play “The Unicorn Song”, you will get beaten up, and deservedly so. 🙂** Well, _that’s_ just a matter of good taste… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2001, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/126 "2001-01-06T07:02:35Z")
Tom, I don’t see much point in trying to explain my position to you, as you seem determined to ignore me. The beginning of your most recent post expresses almost the same viewpoint as your 12-27-2000 02:28 AM post, and I really don’t see the point of going over that again since you didn’t listen the first time. And the next part of your post shows that either you are completely ignorant of the meaning of the term “straw man”, or else you are intentionally misusing the term in a pathetic attempt to discredit me. Try actually looking up a term before you use it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Crimson_Hipster_Dufuz)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2001, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/127 "2001-01-06T08:06:19Z")
> [@](#): > > When you get right down to it, St. Paddy’s Day isn’t inclusive. It seems a lot of people get into drinking green beer and eating corned beef and cabbage on St. Pats. > [@](#): > > If you were to go into a real Irish pub If you’re in a real Irish pub, you’re in Ireland, where, surprisingly, no one makes a big deal out of St. Patrick’s day. > [@](#): > > (some do still exist in the U.S.) and demand the band play “The Unicorn Song”, you will get beaten up, and deservedly so. And yet, that’s probably a more “authentic” way to spend St. Pat’s, since St. Pat’s is about third and fourth generation Irish-Americans whoopin’ it up, and an excuse to have a mad drunken blowout. It’s pretty amusing, really, the way Irish-Americans and Italians Americans trade on their stereotypes. You’d certainly never see a college football team named “The Haggling Jews” or a basketball team called “the Detroit Negroes,” and we think gangsters are pretty loveable, judging from the success of “The Sopranos.” I can’t imagine middle America taking a show about gangstas to heart, though. Well, I guess kids like gangsta rap, though, so that’s kind of the same thing. Of course, if you showed up on Martin Luther King day with your head in a doo-rag or wearing a dashiki, it wouldn’t be the same thing at all, and I guess this is because African Americans and their cultural artifacts aren’t assimilated in the way our other ethnic groups are, so again, arguments from symmetry are foolish. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Crimson_Hipster_Dufuz)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2001, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/128 "2001-01-06T08:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Tom, I don’t see much point in trying to explain my position to you, as you seem determined to ignore me. is there any reason he should pay attention to the muddle headed and arrogant? > [@](#): > > The beginning of your most recent post expresses almost the same viewpoint as your 12-27-2000 02:28 AM post, and I really don’t see the point of going over that again since you didn’t listen the first time. On the contrary, he did a fine job of responding to you. You feel, and you’ve admitted its just your feeling, so right away you’re being held to a low standard of contradiction, that Kwanzaa is a rejection of Christmas, and that implicit in this is the claim that Christmas is racist, and when challenged you’ve failed to provide any evidence. In fact, you’ve basically stated you don’t have to show us evidence for why you think and feel something. Now, this might play around the couch in your groovy paneled basement, or whereever it is you hold forth on Ryan’s whims, but you may consider us original dopers to be from Missouri, as it were. Can you present a survey of Kwanzaa celebrants wherein a majority of respondants answered “I intentionally avoid any sort of Christmas celebration” or “I feel Christmas is a holiday for white people” or “African Americans shouldn’t celebrate Christmas” affirmatively? Can you find a statement from the founder of Kwanzaa to the effect of “I came up with this because Christmas is a white devil slavemaster thing.” He’s written a book I assume you could read…hmmm…telling Ryan to read before he speaks out, so that he may know as to what he speaks out about, it’s a regular theme around here. > [@](#): > > And the next part of your post shows that either you are completely ignorant of the meaning of the term “straw man”, or else you are intentionally misusing the term in a pathetic attempt to discredit me. Wow. Jeez. A straw man is an attempt by someone (usually Ryan) to simplify or even falsify arguments against his position: it’s related to the ad hominem fallacy. If you say something like “well, I’m just going on my feelings, but the only way we know about racism is because of the feelings of people who claim to have been discriminated against in some way, so if Tom doesn’t believe what i say, he must not believe in racism.” That sounds like a simplistic to the extent it isn’t false presentation of both Tom’s arguments against you, and racism in our nation. Thus, “straw man” is a pretty apt description. > [@](#): > > Try actually looking up a term before you use it. now, that’s comedy! say, your last name wouldn’t be Abbate, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2001, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/129 "2001-01-06T13:01:17Z")
Most years, I teach my fourth-grade class about Kwanzaa. (Not this year, 'cause I didn’t have time.) No one in the class is black, including me. I’m simply teaching about other cultures, other traditions. (OK, some people may not like multicultural education – write a letter to the school board. Or start a different thread.) Kwanzaa is a good educational opportunity–I can compare Kwanzaa’s seven candles to Hanukkah’s nine candles, to St. Lucia’s crown of candles, to the ever-present Christmas candles and Christmas tree lights. Questions to the class: “Why do so many festivals around the time of Winter Solstice have a theme of lights and candles? Why would light be important in December?” (Only got to teach Hanukkah this year. Just barely.) Why is Kwanzaa in December? Well, Kwanzaa literally means “first fruits.” Kwanzaa is supposed to be based on some actual “first fruits” festivals in Africa. Does anyone have knowledge of the timing of African harvest festivals? Is December harvest-time in Africa? Please post. Two conclusions: 1. There may be some authentic elements of Kwanzaa which are actually celebrated in Africa. 2. There may be Kwanzaa-like festivals in Africa that are actually in December. I always thought the seven principles and seven symbols of Kwanzaa were beautiful and moving, authentic or not. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/130 "2001-01-07T01:02:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Crimson Hipster Dufuz \* > Wow. Jeez. A straw man is an attempt by someone (usually Ryan) to simplify or even falsify arguments against his position: it’s related to the ad hominem fallacy. If you say something like “well, I’m just going on my feelings, but the only way we know about racism is because of the feelings of people who claim to have been discriminated against in some way, so if Tom doesn’t believe what i say, he must not believe in racism.” That sounds like a simplistic to the extent it isn’t false presentation of both Tom’s arguments against you, and racism in our nation. Thus, “straw man” is a pretty apt description. You’re using a manufactured quote to “prove” that I used a straw man argument? Apparently “irony” and “hypocrisy” are additional terms that you guys are unfamiliar with. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Crimson_Hipster_Dufuz)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/131 "2001-01-07T08:25:17Z")
[quote] ## quote: > [@](#): > > * * * > > ## Originally posted by The Crimson Hipster Dufuz Wow. Jeez. A straw man is an attempt by someone (usually Ryan) to simplify or even falsify arguments against his position: it’s related to the ad hominem fallacy. If you say something like “well, I’m just going on my feelings, but the only way we know about racism is because of the feelings of people who claim to have been discriminated against in some way, so if Tom doesn’t believe what i say, he must not believe in racism.” That sounds like a simplistic to the extent it isn’t false presentation of both Tom’s arguments against you, and racism in our nation. Thus, “straw man” is a pretty apt description. > > You’re using a manufactured quote to “prove” that I used a straw man argument? It’s a fair summary of what you said, kiddo. “I don’t think that, in this sort of debate, there is much evidence other than feelings. What sort of evidence do blacks present to support their claim that racism still exists? Mostly stuff like “When I go into a store, I feel like the clerk is paying extra attention to me to make sure I don’t steal anything.” Is that evidence invalid?” Beverly wasn’t using your computer, was she? > [@](#): > > Apparently “irony” and “hypocrisy” are additional terms that you guys are unfamiliar with. But “arrogant, ignorant dork on the internet” is a term I’ve written several widely cited papers on. Is it worth responding to that Peace character? Oh, sure, I know, don’t feed the Ryans, but there are some statements of woeful clue lack my Irish mix-it-up won’t just let walk. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/132 "2001-01-07T19:53:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Crimson Hipster Dufuz \* > > > [@](#): > > > > When you get right down to it, St. Paddy’s Day isn’t inclusive. > > It seems a lot of people get into drinking green beer and eating corned beef and cabbage on St. Pats. But St. Paddy’s Day is about the celebration of all things Irish. If you’re Polish, you can partake in the celebrations, but the holiday isn’t for or about you. In that way, it isn’t inclusive. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > If you were to go into a real Irish pub > > If you’re in a real Irish pub, you’re in Ireland Untrue. In many corners of the U.S., particularly in the old Northeastern cities, there are still strong Irish communities. The pubs in these areas ain’t Bennigans, fer chrissakes. If anything, these communities are often accused of “being more Irish than the Irish.” > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > (some do still exist in the U.S.) and demand the band play “The Unicorn Song”, you will get beaten up, and deservedly so. > > And yet, that’s probably a more “authentic” way to spend St. Pat’s, since St. Pat’s is about third and fourth generation Irish-Americans whoopin’ it up, and an excuse to have a mad drunken blowout. Thank you very much for that stereotype. :rolleyes: I guess I avoid it because I’m seventh-generation Irish-American (we came before the Potato Famine). > [@](#): > > arguments from symmetry are foolish. Admittedly, St. Paddy’s Day is heavily commercialized, and pretty much a Irish-American, not Irish, celebration. So let’s toss it out. Let’s speak instead of San Gennaro or Purim. I’ve been to celebrations of both, though I’m not Italian or Jewish, and I’ve had a great time. However, both celebrations were for and about the ethnicity/religion in question, not for or about me and my bankground. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/133 "2001-01-07T20:09:05Z")
**Crimson Hipster Dufuz** : > [@](#): > > But “arrogant, ignorant dork on the internet” is a term I’ve written several widely cited papers on. [Moderator Hat ON] Cute. :rolleyes: Do not post direct personal insults in GD, Dufuz; any further remarks in this vein that you wish to post should be in The BBQ Pit. Thank you. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146/134 "2001-01-07T22:43:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Crimson Hipster Dufuz > It’s a fair summary of what you said, kiddo. Add “summary” to the astonishingly large list of term you need to study. The term “summary” refers to something which has **fewer** claims than the original, not **more**. Since my original quote had no claims regarding Tom’s beliefs, and your “summary” did, it is clearly not a summary. You just can’t admit you’re wrong, can you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-celebrating-kwanza-just-being-anti-white/47146.md?page=6)