# Isn't Christianity actually a pantheon in practice? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 27, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780 "2013-09-27T04:06:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/21 "2013-09-27T16:39:03Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Jesus is one of the Persons of the Trinity - the Three-in-One which in turn is one of the Mysteries, one of the dogmas that nobody is expected to understand without heavy doses of hallucinogenic aid, and then only for an instant. Correct, apart from the hallucinogens (which don’t help). The traditional analogy, or at least the one I heard, is fog on an icy lake. Fog is water, ice is water, liquid water is water. Different, yet one in essence. The Athanasian phrase is “neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the essence”. How that differs from Modal Monarchianism, which is heresy, I don’t know. And the traditional explanation is ‘it’s a mystery. Shut up.’ Good enough for me. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/22 "2013-09-27T18:08:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How that differs from Modal Monarchianism, which is heresy, I don’t know. And the traditional explanation is ‘it’s a mystery. Shut up.’ That one is “a single Person, appearing in different guises under different circumstances”. The Trinity is three Persons which are present under all circumstances but which at the same time happen to be One, which is where the attempts to comprehend either go out of the window or start cracking jokes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/23 "2013-09-27T18:29:22Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Worshipping Jesus is inseparable from worshipping God the Father and the Holy Ghost, you can’t worship one without the others any more than I can have the left half of my body in New York, the right half in Tokyo, and stay alive. So do Christians think Jews are worshipping God without worshipping Jesus, worshipping God and worshipping Jesus, or not worshipping God at all? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/24 "2013-09-27T18:29:56Z")
That they’re worshipping God without dealing with that particular headache, and that your second option is a contradiction in terms. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/25 "2013-09-27T18:40:25Z")
[QUOTE=The Other Waldo Pepper] So do Christians think Jews are worshipping God without worshipping Jesus, worshipping God and worshipping Jesus, or not worshipping God at all? [/QUOTE] It isn’t possible to worship God without worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It isn’t possible to swallow an ice cube without swallowing water. Or something. [QUOTE=Nava] That one is “a single Person, appearing in different guises under different circumstances”. The Trinity is three Persons which are present under all circumstances but which at the same time happen to be One, which is where the attempts to comprehend either go out of the window or start cracking jokes. [/QUOTE] I reach the “out the window or start cracking jokes” point a lot sooner than theologians of the fourth century AD seem to have done. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/26 "2013-09-27T18:46:43Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That they’re worshipping God without dealing with that particular headache Well, yes, that’s what I figured. But you wrote: _“Worshipping Jesus is inseparable from worshipping God the Father and the Holy Ghost, you can’t worship one without the others”_. What does that mean, if plenty of people do separably worship God in a can-do-one-thing-without-even-dealing-with-some-other-headache manner? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/27 "2013-09-27T19:11:56Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So do Christians think Jews are worshipping God without worshipping Jesus, worshipping God and worshipping Jesus, or not worshipping God at all? Christians think Jews are wrong to not accept Jesus as the messiah - regardless of his ‘place’ in the Trinity - which is only there due to Christian teaching. Conversely - Jews think Christians are obnoxious for thinking that this jesus punk was the messiah. (IMH0 - its a split - the Jews don’t consider Jesus at all - and Christains just say that the Jews that don’t are ‘wrong’.). (and yes - I realize thats a really really big paintbrush) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/28 "2013-09-27T19:26:26Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > That’s what always puzzled me about the tech tree in \*Civilization \*(well, one of the things). Re: monotheism in the game Civilization It’s just a game that angels play on with the earth and we also as humans have a computer version that we can play with also, but… monotheism, that everything is coordinated and connected and not separate is a philosophical advancement. Whichg leads to it’s not various competing gods, but one God and we can figure this thing out. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/29 "2013-09-29T06:05:17Z")
As others point out, one must distinguish between objects of worship and supernatural beings. Often overlooked are the [sons of God](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim): [QUOTE=Genesis 6: 1-4] 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. [/QUOTE] (The “mighty men of old,” born to the daughters of men and sons of God, may have all perished in the Flood.) ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/30 "2013-09-29T06:21:16Z")
“As a child growing up, I went to Methodist Sunday Schools” The OP’s ignorant bias is shown by this statement. (I mean no disrespect, only an acknowledgement of the OP’s lack of knowledge of his/hers ignorance of the wide variety of Christian creeds and the variations within…) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/31 "2013-09-29T06:31:57Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > “As a child growing up, I went to Methodist Sunday Schools” > > The OP’s ignorant bias is shown by this statement. (I mean no disrespect, only an acknowledgement of the OP’s lack of knowledge of his/hers ignorance of the wide variety of Christian creeds and the variations within…) This is especially ironic considering Methodism’s founder, John Wesley, would have founding the idea of praying to or even venerating the Virgin Mary or the saints to be an abhorrent Popish practice, so the OP or at least the article’s author is horribly ignorant even of his old denomination’s theology. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/32 "2013-09-29T16:52:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > This is especially ironic considering Methodism’s founder, John Wesley, would have founding the idea of praying to or even venerating the Virgin Mary or the saints to be an abhorrent Popish practice, so the OP or at least the article’s author is horribly ignorant even of his old denomination’s theology. To be fair, the comment about “Methodist Sunday School” was from the author of the article that the OP cited, not astro the OPoster’s own comment. And let’s face it, the usual Sunday School isn’t the most sophisticated source of theological training, and if that’s the bulk of one’s religious education, can be the spawn of all sorts of muddled thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/33 "2013-09-29T17:01:01Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > And let’s face it, the usual Sunday School isn’t the most sophisticated source of theological training …because often the qualifications for teaching Sunday School begin and end with saying yes when asked to do it. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/34 "2013-09-29T17:12:50Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > And let’s face it, the usual Sunday School isn’t the most sophisticated source of theological training, and if that’s the bulk of one’s religious education, can be the spawn of all sorts of muddled thinking. Well, if you’re going to really “face it,” then we have to admit that the whole of theological training is nothing more than muddled thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/35 "2013-09-29T17:47:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, yes, that’s what I figured. But you wrote: _“Worshipping Jesus is inseparable from worshipping God the Father and the Holy Ghost, you can’t worship one without the others”_. What does that mean, if plenty of people do separably worship God in a can-do-one-thing-without-even-dealing-with-some-other-headache manner? It means exactly what I said. They don’t have that particular headache to deal with, but then, millions of Christians who theoretically have it are very happy to just put it in a box labeled “don’t open: makes head hurt”, and the God they worship is the same one we do. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/36 "2013-09-30T19:25:33Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Per this article](http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/~Biblical%20Cosmology/Cosmology.files/Christian%20Pantheon.htm) isn’t Christianity actually like a pantheon in practice? Sure you can claim these are all aspects of “God”, but when you are praying to, cursing or otherwise recognizing a discrete entity aside from “the” God as a being of supernatural power it (in practice) of weakens this metaphysical “two mints in one” claim that Christians make. > > [From this list](http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/15405-christian-pantheon.html) here are just a few of the entities Christians pray to or recognize as discrete beings of power. > > God (Jehovah/The Father) > The Christ > The Holy Spirit > The Archangels - Gabriel, Michael etc > Lesser Angels > The Virgin Mary > The Apostles > Mary Magdalene > All of the saints > Satan/Lucifer > The Greater Demons - Beelzebub, Azrael etc > Lesser Demons Ummmm… really. The Straight Dope is meant to \*fight \*ignorance… Christianity teaches that God the Father is all power, and personally created each of the “discrete” beings you have described. Furthermore, Christianity teaches that each of these created beings is continually supported by God the Father, for without God’s constant intervention, each of these beings would cease to be. Satan may be “supernatural”, but he too is a created being. He is a being that chose to be evil, but God chooses to allow to exist. In the Book of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, God the Father promises to end Satan’s existence altogether. The only part where monotheism gets complicated is the Trinity, where three co-eternal beings (God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) make up one single God. However, to claim that Christianity is polytheistic is ignorance incarnate. While you may personally believe Christianity is false or futile, only academic dishonesty or sheer ignorance would neglect the existence of 2000 years of Christian thought regarding these matters. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/37 "2013-09-30T20:26:32Z")
It is always amusing to hear that people living 1400 years after Jesus had a much better sense of what he was about than people living 200 years after him. In Roman times there weren’t just the big time gods, but people believed in thousands of small gods who handled specific tasks. Saints let new Christians transition easily - I’m sure they were not theologically sophisticated enough to appreciate the difference between the saint doing it and the saint transmitting the request. Why not pray directly to god then? Bandwidth issues? And people could get deified and become gods, just like people can get canonized and eventually become saints. Romans didn’t wait until they were dead, though. As for Jews worshiping Jesus, that seems the same as Muslims claiming that Abraham and probably Jesus were actually Muslim since they’d know the truth. Let’s just say the stuff I learned in Hebrew school (not in books, from some teachers) was not at all conducive to worship. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/38 "2013-09-30T21:28:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It is always amusing to hear that people living 1400 years after Jesus had a much better sense of what he was about than people living 200 years after him. > In Roman times there weren’t just the big time gods, but people believed in thousands of small gods who handled specific tasks. Saints let new Christians transition easily - I’m sure they were not theologically sophisticated enough to appreciate the difference between the saint doing it and the saint transmitting the request. Why not pray directly to god then? Bandwidth issues? > And people could get deified and become gods, just like people can get canonized and eventually become saints. Romans didn’t wait until they were dead, though. No Christian who venerates a saint today believes he is worshiping the saint. Why would people 1400 years ago believe any differently? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![lucaspa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@lucaspa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucaspa)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/39 "2013-09-30T21:56:12Z")
> [@astro](#): > > isn’t Christianity actually like a pantheon in practice? Short answer: No, but people try to make the strawman that it is. If you want beliefs of **Christianity** you go to the Nicene and Apostles Creeds: [The Nicene Creed](http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm) [Apostles Creed](http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm) Both of these are stating the doctrine that makes Christianity unique among all religions having to do with Jesus Christ: Trinity. We can go into discussing Trinity if you wish, but the effect of Trinity is to preserve monotheism. > [@](#): > > From this list here are just a few of the entities Christians pray to or recognize as discrete beings of power. Here “Christians” are lumped too much together. No Christian is going to pray to the last 3. Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox tend to pray to the Virgin Mary and to saints. Protestants don’t. I have never encountered any part of Christianity that prays to Archangels, angels, the Apostles, or Mary Magdalene. By standard Christian theology all those prayers would be in vain since the entities do not answer prayers. Yes, Trinity can be somewhat difficult to grasp, especially if one has a preconception to use it as a “pantheon in practice”, but there are several examples in nature of entities having different aspects. It is also a characteristic of human beings. We all have several personas in one ousia. As just one example from nature, consider the dual aspects of light: both particle and wave. You can set up to measure only particle, or you can set up to measure only wave. But, in reality, light is both at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![lucaspa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@lucaspa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucaspa)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780/40 "2013-09-30T22:06:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Saints let new Christians transition easily - I’m sure they were not theologically sophisticated enough to appreciate the difference between the saint doing it and the saint transmitting the request. Why not pray directly to god then? Bandwidth issues? More like human theological power issues. People started off praying directly to God. The Pauline letters have that. Jesus taught that. However, as time went by Catholicism set itself up such that it claimed that the average person could not get in touch with God directly, but had to go through a human intermediate: the priest. This became even more entrenched when scripture was in Latin and only priests were taught Latin. One major aspect of the Reformation was to remove priests as intermediaries and translate scripture into the everyday language. Eventually, the Catholic Church changed and bought into these changes and discarded the priest as mandatory intermediary. > [@](#): > > As for Jews worshiping Jesus, that seems the same as Muslims claiming that Abraham and probably Jesus were actually Muslim since they’d know the truth. Depends on whether being Jewish is a religion or culture. Remember, Jesus was a Jew. Born a Jew, lived a Jew, died a Jew. For decades Christianity was a cult within the synagogue. When dealing with Gentiles, the Jerusalem apostles were requiring conversion to Judaism before they would accept a convert as Christian. So, I can see Jews keeping the dietary laws, circumcision, and all the other Laws found in the Pentateuch, but accepting Jesus as Messiah. Those would be “Jews worshipping Jesus”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-christianity-actually-a-pantheon-in-practice/669780.md?page=3)