# isn't it always safe to eat something if you heat it enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706 "2009-08-25T23:06:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/1 "2009-08-25T23:06:14Z")
Inspired by this thread: [15 month old frozen meatballs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=529415) Suppose we have food that was at one time edible (this condition is specified to exclude toxic foods like death-cap mushrooms or pufferfish liver). Isn’t it always safe to eat the food, regardless of how long it’s been sitting on the kitchen counter, _provided_ I cook it enough? I read about a [“botulinum cook” temperature](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism#Prevention): 121 °C (250 °F) for 3 minutes. Is it possible for the food to remain dangerous even after cooking? You might have to cook it for a long time, and it might not taste very good or be very tender, but I am guessing that you can always make it safe to eat. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/2 "2009-08-25T23:08:19Z")
No. Some bacteria produce a toxin as part of their metabolic process. Cooking only kills the bacteria; it doesn’t remove the toxin. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/3 "2009-08-25T23:09:15Z")
You can always kill bacteria and other nasties by cooking something enough. But, you will not eliminate the toxic chemicals excreted by said nasties while they were alive. In the case of botulism, the disease is actually caused by the [botulinum toxin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulinum_toxin), which is produced by the C. botulinum bacteria. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/4 "2009-08-25T23:09:59Z")
One of you guys owes the other one a Coke. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/5 "2009-08-25T23:13:06Z")
I’ll accept that. I was wrong. But what if I put that old hamburger meat on a rocket and sent it into the sun? I bet that would destroy the botulinum toxin. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/6 "2009-08-25T23:19:24Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I’ll accept that. I was wrong. But what if I put that old hamburger meat on a rocket and sent it into the sun? I bet that would destroy the botulinum toxin. 😛 It would singe your tongue something narsty, though. You just can’t win with old meat. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/7 "2009-08-25T23:33:12Z")
Is there a temp at which the botulism toxin is neutralized? Presumably, it’s out of the range of culinary edibility, but what’s the limit? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/8 "2009-08-25T23:33:15Z")
Also, prions (the structures that are thought to induce the damage that causes mad cow disease and Kreutzfeld-Jacob disease in humans) aren’t destroyed by simple heat. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/9 "2009-08-25T23:47:07Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Also, prions (the structures that are thought to induce the damage that causes mad cow disease and Kreutzfeld-Jacob disease in humans) aren’t destroyed by simple heat. Is there some kind of complex heat that will destroy them? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/10 "2009-08-25T23:49:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Also, prions (the structures that are thought to induce the damage that causes mad cow disease and Kreutzfeld-Jacob disease in humans) aren’t destroyed by simple heat. Well, you can still thermally denature them if you try hard enough. The pedantic answer to the OP’s question would be “yes,” although I don’t think a small smear of mineral oxides and carbon dioxide would be very palatable. The more practical answer has already been mentioned, of course. The metabolites and various excretions of the bacteria rather than the organisms themselves are responsible for food poisoning, and until you reach a temperature at which you can start to physically degrade the molecules involved (at which point your meatballs will probably just be small, blackened smoldering lumps) you shouldn’t consume them. Then again, you probably shouldn’t consume them after they’re small, blackened smoldering lumps either. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/11 "2009-08-25T23:55:49Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > You just can’t win with old meat. There’s a joke in there somewhere… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/12 "2009-08-25T23:57:15Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I’ll accept that. I was wrong. But what if I put that old hamburger meat on a rocket and sent it into the sun? I bet that would destroy the botulinum toxin. 😛 It would, unless you do it at night. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/13 "2009-08-25T23:57:41Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > There’s a joke in there somewhere… > > 😛 As long as nobody brings up Michael Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/14 "2009-08-26T00:15:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As long as nobody brings up Michael Jackson. We won’t. Now, if someone had mentioned young meat, that’d be different. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/15 "2009-08-26T03:11:17Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > No. Some bacteria produce a toxin as part of their metabolic process. Cooking only kills the bacteria; it doesn’t remove the toxin. Bacteria poop! ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/16 "2009-08-26T03:49:27Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#): > > One of you guys owes the other one a Coke. Make it a Coke in a can that has its ends swollen into a deformed shape. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/17 "2009-08-26T04:40:12Z")
Fortunately it appears as of botulinum toxin is every more susceptible to heating than _C. botulinum_ itself: [http://www.springerlink.com/content/k15n748242175047/fulltext.pdf?page=1](http://www.springerlink.com/content/k15n748242175047/fulltext.pdf?page=1) Of course, botulism is far from the only type of food poisoning one needs to be concerned with, and I’ve never heard of a single set temperature and length of sustained temperature that’s supposed to make everything safe regardless of the storage history of a food, but generally I think you’ll be much safer with thoroughly reheated leftovers. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/18 "2009-08-26T04:52:16Z")
More or less agree with **threemae**. Heat both kills bacteria and denatures toxins. It’s just that you can kill bacteria quickly, but it takes either more heat or more time to take out the toxins. So, it’s true, as others have pointed out, that simply cooking food doesn’t solve both problems. But, both can be solved. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/19 "2009-08-26T07:03:02Z")
Not necessarily. Your cite mentions only botulin. C. botulinum is hardly the only bacterium out there; it’s not even the most likely–doesn’t it require anaerobic conditions? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706/20 "2009-08-26T07:53:51Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > More or less agree with **threemae**. Heat both kills bacteria and denatures toxins. It’s just that you can kill bacteria quickly, but it takes either more heat or more time to take out the toxins. So, it’s true, as others have pointed out, that simply cooking food doesn’t solve both problems. But, both can be solved. So I can go cook some rat poison? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-always-safe-to-eat-something-if-you-heat-it-enough/507706.md?page=2)