# Isn't it time for atheists to stop telling the Galileo myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411 "2008-12-23T04:03:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/1 "2008-12-23T04:03:44Z")
By the Galileo myth, I mean claims like the ones in this thread. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=482007&highlight=Galileo](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=482007&highlight=Galileo) That thread is certainly not unique, and similar claims are made by just about every prominent atheist. Carl Sagan included this fable in _The Demon-Haunted World_, for instance. And a fable is what it is. No such event ever took place. Moreover the reality is pretty much the opposite of the fable. Let’s move carefully through a list of actual facts that atheists tend to omit. 1. Galileo himself was a Catholic for his entire life, from childhood to death. He was a member of the church, a regular attendee, and there’s no evidence of his having any doubt of the basic soundness of Church authority. 2. The Catholic Church was a supporter of Galileo throughout his career. They not only provided moral support and encouragement, but also funding and other institutional support. Another fact that atheists often fail to mention is that Pope Urban VIII (the supposed villain of the tale) wrote a poem praising Galileo. 3. The claim is often made that the Church was afraid of Galileo’s heliocentric theory because they were a threat to Church Doctrine. This is completely false statement. The Church had no position on the issue of geocentric vs. heliocentric universe. They did not have any reason to care particularly about the issue. Two clergymen, Fr Clavius and Fr Grienberger, looked through his telescope and may have helped him take data. 4. Now one aspect of the Galileo is a half-truth: there was a sizable force in the scholarly world that was viciously opposed to the heliocentric theory. Aristotelean naturalists, who basically believed that Aristotle was prefect, held considerable sway in the 16th century. For instance, Professors at Oxford could be fined serious money if they contradicted Aristotle. Of course, these folks were often the intellectual opponents of Orthodox Catholics, since Aristotle was an atheist (or agnostic or deist, depending on how you look at it). 5. Now it was these academics who probably started Galileo’s troubles by reporting him to Church authorities as a heretic. (We don’t know exactly what they said, but we can make an educated guess.) Cardinal Robert Bellarmine investigated in 1616. He spoke with Galileo, and Galileo admitted there was no conclusive evidence for the heliocentric theory. In order to give the controversy time to calm down, Bellarmine asked Galileo to temporarily refrain from speaking out on the issue. Galileo promised to so in writing, and spent the next years on other scientific research. 6. In 1632 Galileo jumped back into the heliocentric vs. geocentric debate, breaking his promise. Moreover, he did it in a particularly aggressive work that openly mocked the Pope (for no apparent reason) and also treaded on other, purely theological and philosophical issues that were controversial because they related to the conflict of the Reformation. Galileo’s academic enemies came back and accused him of heresy again. His supporters (who included the Pope) wanted to basically give him a slap on the wrist, but the trial spiraled out of control. At this point we encounter several sub-myths: 7. A. Galileo was never imprisoned. He was placed under house arrest at a luxurious villa, and allowed to travel several times. (Kind of live being jailed at a beachfront condo or a luxury ski chalet. He probably had the time of his life.) 8. B. Some atheists will claim that Galileo was threatened with torture, tortured, or threatened with death. All of this if is flatly false. 9. C. Some will say that Galileo was prosecuted by the “Inquisition”, leaving readers to assume the Spanish Inquisition. Actually it was the final Inquisition located in Italy, the one that ordered six executions during its entire existence. 10. D. And lastly, that bit about Galileo staying true to his scientific findings under his breath, while pretending to admit to being wrong? Never happened. So, to summarize: the Galileo myth is a myth plain and simple. The Catholic Church never attempted to eliminate the heliocentric theory for any reason. So with that said, shouldn’t atheists stop telling the Galileo myth? \*And if you’re hungry for cites: [http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0138.html](http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0138.html) [http://townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2007/11/26/debunking\_the\_galileo\_myth](http://townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2007/11/26/debunking_the_galileo_myth) [http://gc.users.nelsonbay.com/observatory\_files/Page1559.htm](http://gc.users.nelsonbay.com/observatory_files/Page1559.htm) ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/2 "2008-12-23T04:13:56Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 1. The Catholic Church was a supporter of Galileo throughout his career. Until they tried and convicted him for heresy, of course. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The Catholic Church never attempted to eliminate the heliocentric theory for any reason. So with that said, shouldn’t atheists stop telling the Galileo myth? Which myth are you talking about specifically? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/3 "2008-12-23T04:16:12Z")
1: It’s not an “atheist myth”, it’s one of many symplifications of history that are repeated. It was taught to me in the 70’s in High School, by a teacher who was not an atheist. I assume the story goes back well before then. 2: A summary of your facts could be that: a) Galileo was asked not to teach heliocentrism, b) he refused, c) he was imprisoned. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/4 "2008-12-23T04:21:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 1. A. Galileo was never imprisoned. He was placed under house arrest at a luxurious villa, and allowed to travel several times. (Kind of live being jailed at a beachfront condo or a luxury ski chalet. He probably had the time of his life.) Since we’re talking myths here, I’ll just take this one on. Can we have a cite that he had “the time of his life”? I mean, certainly you’re not just pulling that out of your ass, right? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/5 "2008-12-23T04:24:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Until they tried and convicted him for heresy, of course. They provided funding for Galileo’s research after the trial for the rest of his life. > [@](#): > > Which myth are you talking about specifically? The myth that the Catholic Church tried to silence Galileo’s scientific research because it threatened Church doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/6 "2008-12-23T04:27:30Z")
Hmmm let me see…Carl Sagan or some random religious guy with an ax to grind who is promoting revisionist history on the internet…that’s a tough call… ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/7 "2008-12-23T04:36:45Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > 1: It’s not an “atheist myth”, it’s one of many symplifications of history that are repeated. It was taught to me in the 70’s in High School, by a teacher who was not an atheist. I assume the story goes back well before then. D’Souza traces the myth to a book called _History of the Conflict Between Science and Religion_, which is a very definite barrage of anti-Christian nastiness from the 19th century, and one that no one takes seriously today because the things it said were mainly false. That’s where it originates. These days I certainly see it brought up mainly by atheists as their “proof” that religion is opposed to science. Some other people may have been tricked into believing it. > [@](#): > > 2: A summary of your facts could be that: a) Galileo was asked not to teach heliocentrism, b) he refused, c) he was imprisoned. No, that would not be an accurate summary. His trial and conviction were the result of a lot of things, including breaking his sworn promise and lying to the court. But above all, the standout fact is that the Pope tried to avoid the lengthy, publicized trial. Since the Pope is the leader of the Catholic Church, that means that the Church was not trying to shut Galileo down. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/8 "2008-12-23T04:39:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Since we’re talking myths here, I’ll just take this one on. Can we have a cite that he had “the time of his life”? Well, I actually said in parentheses that he “probably had the time of his life”. The point was that the numerous claims of torture, threatened execution, and the gothic tales of the Spanish Inquisition are complete make-believe. He was treated well. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/9 "2008-12-23T04:47:51Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Aristotelean naturalists, who basically believed that Aristotle was **prefect…** Aristotle was the headmaster of his boarding school dormitory? [sup]😕[/sup] Guess that’s how he gained access to all those little boys… ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/10 "2008-12-23T04:47:58Z")
> [@](#): > > On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.[104][105] What exactly were they apologizing for? Treating him well and showing him the time of his life? The Church was adamantly opposed to any theory that suggested that the earth was not fixed in place. It would kind of disprove the whole shebang for literalists which most of them were back then. > [@](#): > > Western Christian biblical references Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include (depending on translation) text stating that “the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved.” In the same tradition, Psalm 104:5 says, “the LORD set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.” Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that “And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place, etc.”[85] ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/11 "2008-12-23T04:49:40Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The Catholic Church never attempted to eliminate the heliocentric theory for any reason. Well, except for the part where, on March 5, 1616, the Congregation of the Index issued a [decree](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/admonition.html) stating: > [@](#): > > …And whereas it has also come to the knowledge of the said Congregation that the Pythagorean doctrine—which is false and altogether opposed to the Holy Scripture—of the motion of the Earth, and the immobility of the Sun, which is also taught by Nicolaus Copernicus in _De revolutionibus orbium coelestium_, and by Diego de Zuniga [in his book] on Job, is now being spread abroad and accepted by many—as may be seen from a certain letter of a Carmelite Father, entitled _Letter of the Rev. Father Paolo Antonio Foscarini, Carmelite, on the Opinion of the Pythagoreans and of Copernicus concerning the Motion of the Earth, and the Stability of the Sun, and the New Pythagorean System of the World, at Naples, Printed by Lazzaro Scoriggio_, 1615: wherein the said Father attempts to show that the aforesaid doctrine of the immobility of the sun in the centre of the world, and of the Earth’s motion, is consonant with truth and is not opposed to Holy Scripture. Therefore, in order that this opinion may not insinuate itself any further to the prejudice of Catholic truth, the Holy Congregation has decreed that the said Nicolaus Copernicus, _De revolutionibus orbium_, and Diego de Zuniga, On Job, be suspended until they be corrected; but that the book of the Carmelite Father, Paolo Antonio Foscarini, be altogether prohibited and condemned, and that all other works likewise, in which the same is taught, be prohibited, as by this present decree it prohibits, condemns, and suspends them all respectively. In witness whereof the present decree has been signed and sealed with the hands and with the seal of the most eminent and Reverend Lord Cardinal of St. Cecilia, Bishop of Albano, on the fifth day of March, 1616. As even the [1917 _Catholic Encyclopedia_](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm)–not exactly the work of a bunch of Catholic-bashing atheists–notes, “In thus acting, it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error”. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/12 "2008-12-23T04:57:48Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 1. C. Some will say that Galileo was prosecuted by the “Inquisition”, leaving readers to assume the Spanish Inquisition. Actually it was the final Inquisition located in Italy, the one that ordered six executions during its entire existence. I assume one of those six executions was the notorious burning of Giordano Bruno. And do you have a cite for anyone actually assuming that “the Inquisition” must therefore be the _Spanish_ Inquisition? I mean, probably _somebody_ has, but it hardly seems inaccurate or particularly prejudicial to refer to a body called the Inquisition as, well, “the Inquisition”. A body which, as previously mentioned, has ordered an advocate of heliocentrism (among a great many other things) burned alive within living memory at the time of Galileo’s run in with the _ **Roman** _ Inquisition. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/13 "2008-12-23T04:58:12Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > D’Souza traces the myth to a book called _History of the Conflict Between Science and Religion_, which is a very definite barrage of anti-Christian nastiness from the 19th century, and one that no one takes seriously today because the things it said were mainly false. A slimeball like D’Souza is hardly someone I’d use as a cite. That being said, like **DanBlather** said, it’s bad history, not an “atheist myth”. It’s not like atheists need Galileo to make religion look bad; historical religious atrocity is a well of anti-religious examples with essentially no bottom. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/14 "2008-12-23T04:59:41Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > What exactly were they apologizing for? Treating him well and showing him the time of his life? I presume that the Pope was merely trying to get this piece of nonsense good and buried. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/15 "2008-12-23T05:02:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A slimeball like D’Souza is hardly someone I’d use as a cite. > > That being said, like **DanBlather** said, it’s bad history, not an “atheist myth”. It’s not like atheists need Galileo to make religion look bad; historical religious atrocity is a well of anti-religious examples with essentially no bottom. I agree that ITR’s version is bad history but it seems like you are saying something else. Was that intentional? Are you of all people saying that the church did not persecute Galileo and that it had no problem with heliocentrism? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/16 "2008-12-23T05:04:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I presume that the Pope was merely trying to get this piece of nonsense good and buried. And maybe if frogs had wings they wouldn’t bump their ass when they hop… ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/17 "2008-12-23T05:10:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A slimeball like D’Souza is hardly someone I’d use as a cite. I went to college with him. He was an untrustworthy journalist back then too. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/18 "2008-12-23T05:11:48Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > I agree that ITR’s version is bad history but it seems like you are saying something else. Was that intentional? Are you of all people saying that the church did not persecute Galileo and that it had no problem with heliocentrism? From what I’ve read over the years, they DID have a problem with heliocentrism ( as shown in this thread), but much of their problem with Galileo had to do with his talent for making enemies ( including among scientific rivals ), and not the science. And they did persecute him, if relatively mildly. It’s been a long time since I read anything factual ( as in non-fictional) on the subject though. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/19 "2008-12-23T05:16:43Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 1. A. Galileo was never imprisoned. He was placed under house arrest at a luxurious villa, and allowed to travel several times. (Kind of live being jailed at a beachfront condo or a luxury ski chalet. He probably had the time of his life.) Hey, pal, whatever you have to tell yourself to get through the day. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/20 "2008-12-23T05:18:46Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Well, except for the part where, on March 5, 1616, the Congregation of the Index issued a [decree](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/admonition.html) stating: What I’m objecting to is the central narrative, which happens to be the one that that website presents, asserting that the Church tried to silence the heliocentric theory because they were afraid that it might prove something in the Bible false. That’s not what happened, as we can see in the letter by Cardinal Bellarmine (posted on the same site). His argument basically is: -The heliocentric theory has some good points, but it has not been proven yet. -Therefore at the present time I reject the heliocentric theory and prefer the geocentric theory, in agreement with scripture and with the majority of today’s scholars. -However, if real evidence backing the heliocentric theory was provided, I would admit that I made a mistake and my interpretation of scripture was wrong. I just haven’t seen any such evidence yet. His final paragraph: > [@](#): > > Third, I say that, if there were a real proof that the Sun is in the centre of the universe, that the Earth is in the third sphere, and that the Sun does not go round the Earth but the Earth round the Sun, then we should have to proceed with great circumspection in explaining passages of Scripture which appear to teach the contrary, and we should rather have to say that we did not understand them than declare an opinion to be false which is proved to be true. But I do not think there is any such proof since none has been shown to me. To demonstrate that the appearances are saved by assuming the sun at the centre and the earth in the heavens is not the same thing as to demonstrate that in fact the sun is in the centre and the earth is in the heavens. I believe that the first demonstration may exist, but I have very grave doubts about the second; and in case of doubt one may not abandon the Holy Scriptures as expounded by the holy fathers. So his basic stance is, we’ll believe the heliocentric theory when we see some proof. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411.md?page=2)