# Isn't it time for atheists to stop telling the Galileo myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411 "2008-12-23T04:03:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/21 "2008-12-23T05:21:14Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I assume one of those six executions was the notorious burning of Giordano Bruno. > > And do you have a cite for anyone actually assuming that “the Inquisition” must therefore be the _Spanish_ Inquisition? I mean, probably _somebody_ has, but it hardly seems inaccurate or particularly prejudicial to refer to a body called the Inquisition as, well, “the Inquisition”. A body which, as previously mentioned, has ordered an advocate of heliocentrism (among a great many other things) burned alive within living memory at the time of Galileo’s run in with the _ **Roman** _ Inquisition. As the article by Lessl that I already linked to mentions, the case of Giordano Bruno had absolutely nothing to do with his belief in heliocentrism, nor with any of his other scientific beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/22 "2008-12-23T05:24:23Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So his basic stance is, we’ll believe the heliocentric theory when we see some proof. And the fact that the church did not officially concede that the earth was not stationary until 1992 is proof that you guys are real sticklers when it comes to proof. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/23 "2008-12-23T05:34:51Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > What I’m objecting to is the central narrative, which happens to be the one that that website presents, asserting that the Church tried to silence the heliocentric theory because they were afraid that it might prove something in the Bible false. The Church (specifically the Congregation of the Index) didn’t exactly help your case by using language like “…the Pythagorean doctrine—which is false and altogether opposed to the Holy Scripture—of the motion of the Earth, and the immobility of the Sun…” Bruno may not have been put to death specifically for his astronomical views, as opposed to his other views–bearing in mind, it wasn’t like he was running around poisoning people or burning down nunneries; he was burned alive for _publishing opinions_–but, as the decree of the Congregation of the Index shows, the line between “science” and “theology”, and therefore between “scientific error” and “heresy”, was not real well-defined, something which would have to weigh on the mind of anyone seeking to make scientific inquiries into the nature of the Universe. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/24 "2008-12-23T05:48:26Z")
Speaking as someone who honestly doesn’t know – am I taking it that everyone essentially concedes the factual claims in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/25 "2008-12-23T05:51:39Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] His trial and conviction were the result of a lot of things, including breaking his sworn promise and lying to the court. [/QUOTE] **ITR champion** , it appears that one major part of your argument is that Galileo “broke his promise” to not speak out on heliocentrism. However, your own OP contradicts this. You stated that in 1616 Galileo agreed to temporarily refrain from speaking on the issue. Then in 1632 he returned to the debate, thus “breaking his promise”. I don’t know in what universe 16 years is not sufficient to cover his promise to _temporarily_ stop talking on the subject. My emphasis added in bold to your OP: [QUOTE=ITR champion] 5. Now it was these academics who probably started Galileo’s troubles by reporting him to Church authorities as a heretic. (We don’t know exactly what they said, but we can make an educated guess.) Cardinal Robert Bellarmine investigated in **1616**. He spoke with Galileo, and Galileo admitted there was no conclusive evidence for the heliocentric theory. In order to give the controversy time to calm down, Bellarmine asked Galileo to **temporarily refrain from speaking out on the issue**. Galileo promised to so in writing, and spent the next years on other scientific research. 1. **In 1632 Galileo jumped back into the heliocentric vs. geocentric debate, breaking his promise**. Moreover, he did it in a particularly aggressive work that openly mocked the Pope (for no apparent reason) and also treaded on other, purely theological and philosophical issues that were controversial because they related to the conflict of the Reformation. Galileo’s academic enemies came back and accused him of heresy again. His supporters (who included the Pope) wanted to basically give him a slap on the wrist, but the trial spiraled out of control. At this point we encounter several sub-myths [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/26 "2008-12-23T05:52:30Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Speaking as someone who honestly doesn’t know – am I taking it that everyone essentially concedes the factual claims in the OP? Well, no. For example, I am strongly disputing the claim from the OP that “The Catholic Church never attempted to eliminate the heliocentric theory for any reason”. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/27 "2008-12-23T05:52:59Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > And the fact that the church did not officially concede that the earth was not stationary until 1992 is proof that you guys are real sticklers when it comes to proof. I think this is along the same lines as Kentucky not ratifying the Thirteenth Amendment until 1976 as a goodwill gesture. When they didn’t ratify it they were still bound by it, so they didn’t have to ratify it. When it was obvious it was a mistake but nobody wanted to bring it up because it’d make them look backward and stupid.. And hey, for lots of the time before '76 there was enough racism that it might’ve not passed anyway. Eventually they had to due to public pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/28 "2008-12-23T05:55:42Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Speaking as someone who honestly doesn’t know – am I taking it that everyone essentially concedes the factual claims in the OP? I’m willing to concede that the situation is more complicated than a straightforward “Church bad! Galileo good!” but that doesn’t make me any more sympathetic to the believers. That Galileo was threatened in any fashion is unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/29 "2008-12-23T05:58:38Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > D’Souza traces the myth to a book called _History of the Conflict Between Science and Religion_, which is a very definite barrage of anti-Christian nastiness from the 19th century, . D’Souza has been trying to blame everything in the conflict with between Atheist and Christian, as well as as Church and Science on that one stupid book. His entire message consists of 'There was never any conflict and besides you started it!" ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/30 "2008-12-23T05:59:04Z")
**ITR Champion** , this has to be the lamest attempt ever at trying to prove something in the way of religion (specifically Christianity) versus atheism. Making tiny arguments about obscure topics that entirely evade anything like a real point regardless of which side has more evidence to support it is, as said, plain off lame. If you want to go for a full on debate of Christianity (and other religions) versus atheism, just go ahead and start a thread on that. Ain’t no one fooled that you’re trying to do anything else. I’d be tremendously surprised if this bit of arcane history is really weighing heavy on your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/31 "2008-12-23T06:07:40Z")
D’Souza is a fucking crackpot. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/32 "2008-12-23T06:07:42Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > **Cardinal Robert Bellarmine investigated in 1616.** He spoke with Galileo, and Galileo admitted there was no conclusive evidence for the heliocentric theory. In order to give the controversy time to calm down, **Bellarmine asked Galileo to temporarily refrain from speaking out on the issue**. Galileo promised to so in writing, and spent the next years on other scientific research. > > 1. **In 1632** Galileo jumped back into the heliocentric vs. geocentric debate, **breaking his promise**. Bolding mine. Can you expand on this? The way I’m reading it, Galileo promised to \*temporarily \*shut up about heliocentrism and did so until 1632 (16 years) and that was breaking his promise? Seems like 16 years is enough time for controversy to die down if your ideas are the cause of that controversy. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/33 "2008-12-23T06:10:33Z")
To be fair, Sage, Galileo is about the closet thing atheists have to a martyr, not exactly an obscure or arcane symbol. Though I’m not sure why ITR cares. Christianity has so many martyrs, what the problem if we sort-of have just one? Are Christians greedy or something, hogging all the martyrs? Lousy martyr-hoarders… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/34 "2008-12-23T06:45:00Z")
What does Galileo have to do with atheism? He wasn’t an atheist. There was nothing atheistic about his discoveries. His was not a conflict between atheism and theism (I don’t think the Church ever even intimated that he was an atheist, only that he was a heretic), but between scientific discovery and dogmatic religious orthodoxy. It is not a “myth,” that Galileo was found “vehemently suspect of heresy,” that he was forced to recant heliocentrism, that he was placed under house arrest and that his book was banned. I am now waiting for the OP to start a thread asserting that the Inquistion is an atheist myth. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/35 "2008-12-23T06:59:14Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Bruno may not have been put to death specifically for his astronomical views, as opposed to his other views–bearing in mind, it wasn’t like he was running around poisoning people or burning down nunneries; he was burned alive for _publishing opinions_. . . In Bruno’s case, it was pretty definitely the unitarianism and anti-transubstantiation that did him in. With Galileo, I think he had the misfortune of publishing his theories, undiplomatically, in a time period when the Catholic Church was facing an existential crisis and particularly intolerant of dissent. > [@ITR Champion](#): > > What I’m objecting to is the central narrative, which happens to be the one that that website presents, asserting that the Church tried to silence the heliocentric theory because they were afraid that it might prove something in the Bible false. That’s not what happened, as we can see in the letter by Cardinal Bellarmine (posted on the same site). Bellarmine did write to [Foscarini](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1615bellarmine-letter.html) in 1615, though, saying: > [@](#): > > . . . the Council [of Trent] prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers. And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally (ad litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the center of the universe. Now consider whether in all prudence the Church could encourage giving to Scripture a sense contrary to the holy Fathers and all the Latin and Greek commentators. Nor may it be answered that this is not a matter of faith, for if it is not a matter of faith from the point of view of the subject matter, it is on the part of the ones who have spoken. It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the mouths of the prophets and apostles. > > "Third. I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun was in the center of the universe and the earth in the third sphere, and that the sun did not travel around the earth but the earth circled the sun, then it would be necessary to proceed with great caution in explaining the passages of Scripture which seemed contrary, and we would rather have to say that we did not understand them than to say that something was false which has been demonstrated.But I do not believe that there is any such demonstration; none has been shown to me. It is not the same thing to show that the appearances are saved by assuming that the sun really is in the center and the earth in the heavens. I believe that the first demonstration might exist, but I have grave doubts about the second, and in a case of doubt, one may not depart from the Scriptures as explained by the holy Fathers. . . . ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/36 "2008-12-23T07:04:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I am now waiting for the OP to start a thread asserting that the Inquistion is an atheist myth. No one would expect _that_! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/37 "2008-12-23T07:37:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > To be fair, Sage, Galileo is about the closet thing atheists have to a martyr, not exactly an obscure or arcane symbol. I wasn’t aware that atheism had or needed martyrs to provide evidence on our side. 1. Galileo 2. ??? 3. Atheism! ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/38 "2008-12-23T07:42:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I am now waiting for the OP to start a thread asserting that the Inquistion is an atheist myth. [The closest I can give](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10600234&postcount=67) (perhaps you were referencing this already?). (Though for all I know, he doesn’t say anything incorrect in that post. But I don’t know very much.) ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/39 "2008-12-23T08:14:11Z")
I’m not sure “we didn’t kill Bruno because of science, we killed him because of heresy” is a great rebuttal to people who dislike religion. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/40 "2008-12-23T10:35:04Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I’m not sure “we didn’t kill Bruno because of science, we killed him because of heresy” is a great rebuttal to people who dislike religion. But isn’t it telling that for some people it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411.md?page=3)