# Isn't it time for atheists to stop telling the Galileo myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411 "2008-12-23T04:03:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/41 "2008-12-23T10:49:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > These days I certainly see it brought up mainly by atheists as their “proof” that religion is opposed to science. [If it’s proof you want…](http://www.creationmuseum.org/plan-your-visit/exhibits) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/42 "2008-12-23T11:02:57Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > D’Souza traces the myth to a book called _History of the Conflict Between Science and Religion_, which is a very definite barrage of anti-Christian nastiness from the 19th century, and one that no one takes seriously today because the things it said were mainly false. That’s where it originates. These days I certainly see it brought up mainly by atheists as their “proof” that religion is opposed to science. Some other people may have been tricked into believing it. Honestly, I tend to think of it as one of those historical myths that “everyone knows” that’s actually been blown out of proportion or even totally muddled with time. I don’t think it’s part of some kind of atheistic tactic, wherein innocent people are deliberately tricked into believing it - it’s just one of those pieces of “common knowledge” that gets passed around through society. While i’d certainly agree with you that the truth is likely far from the legend (though your points don’t appear to be entirely reasonable, even against each other), it seems to me a bit ironic for you to ask for the stopping of a rumour that religion and atheism are opposed whilst assuming that the rumour is a deliberate act of atheists against religion. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/43 "2008-12-23T11:03:30Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 1. The claim is often made that the Church was afraid of Galileo’s heliocentric theory because they were a threat to Church Doctrine. This is completely false statement. The Church had no position on the issue of geocentric vs. heliocentric universe. They did not have any reason to care particularly about the issue. Two clergymen, Fr Clavius and Fr Grienberger, looked through his telescope and may have helped him take data. Allow me to quote from the minutes of the Inquisition, dated Thursday, 25 February 1616: > [@](#): > > The Most Illustrious Lord Cardinal Millini notified the reverend Fathers lord Assessor and Lord Commissary of the Holy Office that, after the reporting of the judgment by the Father Theologians against the propositions of the mathematician Galileo (to the effect that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the earth moves even with the diurnal motion), His Holiness ordered the Most Illustrious Lord Cardinal Bellarmine to call Galileo before himself and warn him to abandon these opinions; and if he should refuse to obey, the Father Commissary, in the presence of a notary and witnesses, is to issue him an injunction to abstain completely from teaching or defending this doctrine and opinion or from discussing it; and further, if he should not acquiesce, he is to be imprisoned. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/44 "2008-12-23T11:09:24Z")
[The Catholic Church continues to kill millions with its insane dogma](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids) Old news I know. > [@](#): > > The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk. > > The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV. > > A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue. > [@](#): > > The president of the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the ‘net’ that is formed by the condom. [Homosexuality is as great a threat as rainforest destruction, says Pope](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1100422/Homosexuality-great-threat-rainforest-destruction-says-Pope.html) > [@](#): > > The Pope has declared that saving the world from homosexual behaviour is as important as saving the rainforests. > > In a Christmas message, Benedict XVI stressed the importance of traditional marriage and condemned gay acts as against God’s will. > > He also attacked transsexuals, saying: ‘It is not man who decides who is a man or woman but God.’ The Catholic Church is simply evil. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/45 "2008-12-23T11:52:31Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The Catholic Church is simply evil. Your post is totally irrelevant to the present discussion and your characterization of the Catholic Church as evil is totally unfair. They are definitely misguided and wrong on some issues but to use that the characterize them as wholly evil is totally unfair. And I say this as an atheist who tries to avoid religious threads because I have no insterest in attacking or defending religion. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/46 "2008-12-23T12:17:51Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Your post is totally irrelevant to the present discussion and your characterization of the Catholic Church as evil is totally unfair. They are definitely misguided and wrong on some issues but to use that the characterize them as wholly evil is totally unfair. And I say this as an atheist who tries to avoid religious threads because I have no insterest in attacking or defending religion. Then why don’t they turn over evidence that would convict evildoers among them? Cardinal Roger Mahoney was complicit in covering up molestation for years, shuffling molesters hither and yon, so they could keep up their atrocities, and should be serving hard prison time for aiding and abetting molestation before and after the fact. Did they turn him in to the authorities along with all the evidence? No, they covered it up, and promoted him to CARDINAL for his great work. Yes, the Catholic Church is EVIL EVIL EVIL! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/47 "2008-12-23T12:18:49Z")
The earth centered theory moving to sun centered (of our solar system) is part of a repeating pattern that God has placed in creation. We first think of ourselves first (earth centered), but we find our it is not about us, but Jesus (Son/sun). This pattern is in the church too, we have to come to the point when it is not what we ask God to do for us, but what we can do for Him. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/48 "2008-12-23T12:29:30Z")
\*Sexual abuse cases Challenging aspects of investigations of sexual abuse Mahony appealed an attempt to gain access to church documents relating to sexual abuse all the way to the Supreme Court. The Court refused to hear the appeal, and the decision required the archdiocese to comply with a subpoena from the Los Angeles County District Attorney for letters to the former priests and notes from counseling sessions conducted by the church. Oliver O’Grady The 2006 documentary Deliver Us From Evil is based on accusations that Mahony knew that Oliver O’Grady, a priest who sexually abused children, including a nine-month-old baby, in a string of Central California towns for 20 years, was a child molester but failed to keep him away from children. In 1984, a Stockton police investigation into sexual abuse allegations against O’Grady was reportedly closed after diocesan officials promised to remove the priest from any contact with children. Instead, he was reassigned to a parish about 50 miles (80 km) east, in San Andreas, by Mahony where he continued to molest children. Not long after, Mahony was promoted to archbishop of Los Angeles, the largest Catholic diocese in the country. In Deliver Us From Evil, O’Grady says Mahony was “very supportive and very compassionate and that another situation had been smoothly handled”. Mahony denies knowing that O’Grady was a child molester. [12] However, the documentary provided copies of letters between Mahony and O’Grady during this time. The letters also were a subject of discussion in Mahony’s deposition in a civil lawsuit related to O’Grady. Mahony, under oath, denied knowing of O’Grady’s activity despite evidence to the contrary. During one particular line of question Mahony was asked why he claimed not remember multiple allegations of rape by one of his own subordinates (O’Grady) when he was the Bishop of Stockton. Mahony was advised by his attorney not to answer the question.\* The man should be doing hard time getting a taste of his own medicine, plain and simple. But the Catholic Church would rather pay out millions of donated money that was solicited for good works, rather than fess up and clean house. Evil, evil, evil. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/49 "2008-12-23T12:33:06Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > \ Did you read the thread title? If you want to dicuss a different topic why don’t you go and start that thread yourself? Please do not hijack this thread. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/50 "2008-12-23T12:44:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The earth centered theory moving to sun centered (of our solar system) is part of a repeating pattern that God has placed in creation. We first think of ourselves first (earth centered), but we find our it is not about us, but Jesus (Son/sun). > > This pattern is in the church too, we have to come to the point when it is not what we ask God to do for us, but what we can do for Him. Man, this is deeeep! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/51 "2008-12-23T12:50:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The earth centered theory moving to sun centered (of our solar system) is part of a repeating pattern that God has placed in creation. We first think of ourselves first (earth centered), but we find our it is not about us, but Jesus (Son/sun). > > This pattern is in the church too, we have to come to the point when it is not what we ask God to do for us, but what we can do for Him. I’m not really sure that’s a particularly impressive pattern; it’s essentially saying “we move from one idea to another idea” which pretty much is too vague to be of any indication of anything in my book. And the son/sun comparison is one that would seem to only work in English, and if I recall correctly you do not place very much stock in the language of man. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/52 "2008-12-23T13:34:52Z")
No, no, no–you’re not getting the big picture: the Church asserts one system, some guys come along and suggest that the church’s system is incorrect, the church persecutes the guys for a few hundred years as heretics and enemies of truth, then the church admits the guys were right all along and apologizes for persecuting them. See? No harm, no foul, the natural order of things is followed, we move smoothly and efficiently from one idea to another, and religious folks are at peace with the universe, following God’s divine plan for understanding truth. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/53 "2008-12-23T14:25:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What does Galileo have to do with atheism? He wasn’t an atheist. There was nothing atheistic about his discoveries. His was not a conflict between atheism and theism (I don’t think the Church ever even intimated that he was an atheist, only that he was a heretic), but between scientific discovery and dogmatic religious orthodoxy.. I think this is an important point, and makes me wonder: Was anyone in Western Europe an atheist in those days? We’re talking pre-scientific revolution here, and I doubt that any but a very few would have been capable of a world view that included atheism (or agnosticism). Certainly Galileo was central to the rise of science, and I would put the culmination at Darwin for a time when learned men would start to harbor an atheistic (or agnostic) world view in numbers that were significant. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/54 "2008-12-23T21:38:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think this is an important point, and makes me wonder: Was anyone in Western Europe an atheist in those days? We’re talking pre-scientific revolution here, and I doubt that any but a very few would have been capable of a world view that included atheism (or agnosticism). > **[Atheism | History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#History)** > > Ideas that would be recognized today as atheistic are documented in the Vedic period and the classical antiquity. Atheistic schools are found in early Indian thought and have existed from the times of the historical Vedic religion. Among the six orthodox schools of Hindu philosophy, Samkhya, the oldest philosophical school of thought does not accept God, and the early Mimamsa also rejected the notion of God. > The thoroughly materialistic and anti-theistic philosophical Chārvāka (or Lokāyata) a sc... I can’t say anything in regards to the accuracy of the article. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ancient versions of atheism still included spirits and other things or were perhaps closer to deism. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/55 "2008-12-23T21:56:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I wasn’t aware that atheism had or needed martyrs to provide evidence on our side. Well, we don’t really. Galileo’s experience is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not there is a god, but it _does_ demonstrate the abuse potential in organized religion and its propensity to resist any line of thought varying from its own. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/56 "2008-12-23T21:59:30Z")
how long till my soul gets it right can any human being ever reach that kind of light i call on the resting soul of Galileo king of night vision king of insight so there ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/57 "2008-12-23T22:03:22Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I’m not sure “we didn’t kill Bruno because of science, we killed him because of heresy” is a great rebuttal to people who dislike religion. It’s a rebuttal to people claiming the Catholic church is anti-science, though. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/58 "2008-12-23T22:07:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The earth centered theory moving to sun centered (of our solar system) is part of a repeating pattern that God has placed in creation. We first think of ourselves first (earth centered), but we find our it is not about us, but Jesus (Son/sun). > > This pattern is in the church too, we have to come to the point when it is not what we ask God to do for us, but what we can do for Him. I feel sorry for you. I really do. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/59 "2008-12-23T22:08:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, we don’t really. Galileo’s experience is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not there is a god, but it _does_ demonstrate the abuse potential in organized religion and its propensity to resist any line of thought varying from its own. The abuses of the Catholic church through history are sufficiently numerous and massive that picking Galileo as the whipping boy is fairly random. And going into modern day, I’m not sure which side of the fence the Pope is on, but it could certainly be said that biochemistry is running at loggerheads with Christians. Delaying the development for cures is going to kill millions of people and yet they’re happy to do so based on nothing more than, “You’re playing god!” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/60 "2008-12-23T22:08:35Z")
When do we get to the part of ITR’s argument where Galileo stomps puppies and the Pope shits strawberry milkshake? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411.md?page=4)