# Isn't it time for atheists to stop telling the Galileo myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411 "2008-12-23T04:03:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/61 "2008-12-23T22:23:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The abuses of the Catholic church through history are sufficiently numerous and massive that picking Galileo as the whipping boy is fairly random. Oh, I dunno. The advantage of the Galileo example is that what he was proposing is fairly easy to grasp, as opposed to someone who got condemned for nitpicking some arbitrary aspect of trinity interpretation. I like the example especially because heliocentricism is one of the first major leaps in modern science - using careful calculation and observation to model an empirical process in a manner that could be repeated and matched elsewhere, by scientists who don’t share one’s religious or cultural background. Well, that and it makes the Church look like a bunch of slope-browed primitives, which tickles me somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/62 "2008-12-23T22:45:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, I dunno. The advantage of the Galileo example is that what he was proposing is fairly easy to grasp, as opposed to someone who got condemned for nitpicking some arbitrary aspect of trinity interpretation. I like the example especially because heliocentricism is one of the first major leaps in modern science - using careful calculation and observation to model an empirical process in a manner that could be repeated and matched elsewhere, by scientists who don’t share one’s religious or cultural background. > > Well, that and it makes the Church look like a bunch of slope-browed primitives, which tickles me somewhat. I confess, I feel that what now about certain Christian doctrine that flies in the face of so much scientific evidence. I have to wonder what part of our humanity holds onto that stuff so fiercely,… and why. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/63 "2008-12-23T22:46:10Z")
Mr. IRT Champion, regarding this part of your OP: > [@](#): > > 1. In 1632 Galileo jumped back into the heliocentric vs. geocentric debate, breaking his promise. Moreover, he did it in a particularly aggressive work that openly mocked the Pope (for no apparent reason) and also treaded on other, purely theological and philosophical issues that were controversial because they related to the conflict of the Reformation. Galileo’s academic enemies came back and accused him of heresy again. His supporters (who included the Pope) wanted to basically give him a slap on the wrist, but the trial spiraled out of control. I’ve done some minor googling and been unable to find any confirmation that Galileo’s 1932 book “openly mocked the Pope.” Do you have a cite for that? And as others have said, waiting 16 years to comment further on something that you regard as a HUGE advancement for science and civilization doesn’t seem like much of a broken promise. Do you have any information on why Galileo agreed to suspend comment of heliocentricity in the first place. I’m guessing that he was intimidated into the agreement. If so, then the attempt in your OP to disparage GG for “breaking his promise” seems absurd and cheapens your entire argument. Do you have some info on how freely his “promise” was given? You seem to contend that it really wasn’t The Church doing it, but just some parts of the Church. But somehow those enemies of GG manage to cause his trial to spiral out of control… even though the Pope liked GG. That sounds kinda like a No True Catholic scenario. No matter how thin you slice the potatoes, the man was silenced much of his life, and then tried and confined until his death. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/64 "2008-12-23T23:08:28Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > No matter how thin you slice the potatoes, the man was silenced much of his life, and then tried and confined until his death. No doubt about it. No doubt that by today’s standards it would be unjustifiable. But it did not happen today, it happened when it happened. It happened when such things were happening all over Europe and would continue to happen for centuries so it is just a product of the times. In those times there was no concept of separation of church and state such as we have today. Religion was part of State policy everywhere and even more so in Rome. They jsut did not have the notion of freedom of religion we have today and it would be unfair to judge them for that. The expulsion of the Jews in Spain was more a political move than a religious move even though motivated by religion. So, it is just as silly to say it really did not happen, as the OP tries to do, as it is to try to taint today’s Catholic Church with what happened. In those times yu could get your neck sliced anywhere in Europe for contradicting your king in matters of religion or anything else. Look at Henry VIII in England. Are we supposed to judge today’s English monarchy by that? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/65 "2008-12-23T23:13:49Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > No doubt about it. No doubt that by today’s standards it would be unjustifiable. But it did not happen today, it happened when it happened. It happened when such things were happening all over Europe and would continue to happen for centuries so it is just a product of the times. In those times there was no concept of separation of church and state such as we have today. Religion was part of State policy everywhere and even more so in Rome. They jsut did not have the notion of freedom of religion we have today and it would be unfair to judge them for that. The expulsion of the Jews in Spain was more a political move than a religious move even though motivated by religion. > > So, it is just as silly to say it really did not happen, as the OP tries to do, as it is to try to taint today’s Catholic Church with what happened. In those times yu could get your neck sliced anywhere in Europe for contradicting your king in matters of religion or anything else. Look at Henry VIII in England. Are we supposed to judge today’s English monarchy by that? To say “The [modern] Catholic Church is evil because of what they did to Galileo” is silly. To say, based on what happened to Galileo and on a lot of other things, “_This_ is why we have to keep religion separate from government” is not at all silly. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/66 "2008-12-23T23:23:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Lousy martyr-hoarders… Try saying “martyr-hoarders” as fast as you can ten times. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/67 "2008-12-23T23:36:09Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m not really sure that’s a particularly impressive pattern; it’s essentially saying “we move from one idea to another idea” which pretty much is too vague to be of any indication of anything in my book. And the son/sun comparison is one that would seem to only work in English, and if I recall correctly you do not place very much stock in the language of man. Yes I do admit it is a week pattern in itself, but there are also other patters I’ve noticed that fits this coming to Jesus, this was just one of many He has allowed me to notice. Some words seem to be divinely inspired, sun/Son I feel is one, and God does use the sun as a example of walking in the light, and His mercies are new every morning. There is a parable how a master gives his servants a certain amount of talents, which refer to money, but in english have also the meaning of a ability, which fits the parable and expands the meaning. Also it is God that knew how language would develop, and would have structured it how He wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/68 "2008-12-23T23:42:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes I do admit it is a week pattern in itself, but there are also other patters I’ve noticed that fits this coming to Jesus, this was just one of many He has allowed me to notice. > > Some words seem to be divinely inspired, sun/Son I feel is one, and God does use the sun as a example of walking in the light, and His mercies are new every morning. > > There is a parable how a master gives his servants a certain amount of talents, which refer to money, but in english have also the meaning of a ability, which fits the parable and expands the meaning. > > Also it is God that knew how language would develop, and would have structured it how He wanted. Of course the majority of Christians do not speak English. God foresaw how the language would flow, but not the demographics? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/69 "2008-12-23T23:42:42Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > To say “The [modern] Catholic Church is evil because of what they did to Galileo” is silly. And yet plenty of people are doing that, even in this thread. > [@MEBuckner](#): > > To say, based on what happened to Galileo and on a lot of other things, “_This_ is why we have to keep religion separate from government” is not at all silly. Nobody would deny that. But that is not the issue raised in this OP. In the hopes of improving the image of the Catholic Church, rather than put the facts in their historical perspective, the OP is denying they happened at all. And others are saying they did happen and therefore today’s catholic Church is tainted by those acts. Both sides are wrong. Galileo _was_ unfairly persecuted, although not as badly as some make it to be and not as bad as it could have been with another ruler. And the fact that it happened does not reflect on the Church of today which must be judged by what it does today and which is NOT the subject of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/70 "2008-12-23T23:51:27Z")
Well, some of us have merely been arguing about what the facts are concerning the “Galileo myth”, without trying to bash the 21st Century Catholic Church (or for that matter to argue that the heliocentric theory somehow has something to do with the messiahood of Jesus). And _one_ reason why people might raise the not-so-mythical Galileo myth is, not to demonize the existing Catholic Church, but to point out the dangers of allowing organized religion to gain political power. This obviously applies to the usual church-state issues, but could also be broadened to being part of a more general critique of the idea that we have to accept that religion is above criticism and must be allowed to occupy some privileged place in society. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/71 "2008-12-24T00:02:12Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Of course the majority of Christians do not speak English. God foresaw how the language would flow, but not the demographics? God is so far above us that this is not a issue, He could, if He wanted to He could create a word relationship for you personally, one that only you would see no matter what language you speak. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/72 "2008-12-24T00:07:35Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Hmmm let me see…Carl Sagan or some random religious guy with an ax to grind… Do you honestly think that Carl Sagan had no axe to grind against religion? He was a pretty miltant atheist who made his disdain for religion abundantly clear. Interestingly enough, you see objections like that voiced on the SDMB regularly. Sources such as Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, and the Internet Infidels are routinely cited in these debates, despite their open disdain for all things religious. Yet if you cite pro-theism, pro-Christianity, or pro-religion sources, they will be dismissed on the grounds that they “have an axe to grind.” ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/73 "2008-12-24T00:12:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes I do admit it is a week pattern in itself, but there are also other patters I’ve noticed that fits this coming to Jesus, this was just one of many He has allowed me to notice. > > Some words seem to be divinely inspired, sun/Son I feel is one, and God does use the sun as a example of walking in the light, and His mercies are new every morning. Of course we now know the sun is a big ball of gas. And there are billions of them, many of which are bigger, older, more powerful, and closer to the galactic center than ours, and that ours is not the only galaxy in the universe, which seems to have no center at all. Some sons will blow up, some will collapse in on themselves, but eventually they will all be dead. Just how far did God intend us to take this analogy? > [@](#): > > There is a parable how a master gives his servants a certain amount of talents, which refer to money, but in english have also the meaning of a ability, which fits the parable and expands the meaning. > > Also it is God that knew how language would develop, and would have structured it how He wanted. The modern English sense of the word “talent” derives from its meaning as a unit of currency, and was in fact influenced by the parable you mentioned. There is nothing coincidental or miraculous about this. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/74 "2008-12-24T01:18:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s a rebuttal to people claiming the Catholic church is anti-science, though. I’m not sure it’s even a great rebuttal to that. You’d have to explain a clear dividing line between what constitutes heresy and what constitutes science, and I’m not sure that’s something that really can be articulated. I can’t really figure out the purpose of this thread. If the OP’s purpose is to figure out what exactly happened to Galileo, then I think that’s a useful and interesting discussion. But even if I accept the OP’s version of the facts, I don’t think the Catholic Church comes off looking great. Even with the OP’s version of the facts, I don’t see why an athiest would stop using Galileo as an example of how religion can obstruct free inquiry. I’ve seen one poster post a quote ( **tomndebb**?) regarding how Christians should treat observations of the physical world that makes a much better case that the Church isn’t anti-science. I think that sort of thing makes a far better case that religion doesn’t have to be anti-science than the OP does. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/75 "2008-12-24T01:18:39Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > That thread is certainly not unique, and similar claims are made by just about every prominent atheist. Carl Sagan included this fable in _The Demon-Haunted World_, for instance. And a fable is what it is. I just went through _The Demon-Haunted World_ page by page and all I could find him saying regarding Galileo is this.: > [@](#): > > The religious traditions are often so rich and multivariate that they offer ample opportunity for renewal and revision, again especially when their sacred books can be interpreted metaphorically and allegorically. There is thus middle ground of confessing past errors-as the Roman Catholic Church did in its 1992 acknowledgment that the Galileo was right after all, that the Earth does revolve around the Sun: three centuries late, but courageous nonetheless Did I miss something? What fable are you accusing Carl Sagan of including in _The Demon-Haunted World_? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/76 "2008-12-24T01:29:25Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Do you honestly think that Carl Sagan had no axe to grind against religion? He was a pretty miltant atheist who made his disdain for religion abundantly clear. > > Interestingly enough, you see objections like that voiced on the SDMB regularly. Sources such as Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, and the Internet Infidels are routinely cited in these debates, despite their open disdain for all things religious. Yet if you cite pro-theism, pro-Christianity, or pro-religion sources, they will be dismissed on the grounds that they “have an axe to grind.” Actually, Sagan, Dawkins et al. (mostly Dawkins, as he seems to be the one mostly brought up) _do_ seem to be dismissed on the “axe to grind” grounds. It seems to me this is more of a side vs. side thing; some religious posters are more willing to give credence to religious sources, and atheistic posters to atheistic sources. The times when a religious person agrees with atheistic cites (as yourself do quite often, to your credit) are pretty much as few on the ground, as far as I can tell. Also, “Internet Infidels”? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/77 "2008-12-24T01:50:59Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Do you honestly think that Carl Sagan had no axe to grind against religion? He was a pretty miltant atheist who made his disdain for religion abundantly clear. Do you really think Carl Sagan is less credible than some revisionist witnesser on a message board? Whether he was a militant atheist I will leave to folks like you to discuss, the fact remains that I will bet dollars to donuts he knew more about the history of science and how the universe works than all the people who have ever posted on this board. I don’t just blindly pick people to believe but if I did I could certainly do worse than Carl Sagan. If ITR’s point is just that the Church didn’t persecute Galileo as bad as it persecuted others in that it didn’t stick hot pokers up his ass or burn him at the stake as they did with so many others then I might be willing to consider the evidence, but then that is not much of a point. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/78 "2008-12-24T02:02:12Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I just went through _The Demon-Haunted World_ page by page and all I could find him saying regarding Galileo is this.: > Did I miss something? What fable are you accusing Carl Sagan of including in _The Demon-Haunted World_? Heretic! How dare you interject fact into a discussion of the true faith. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/79 "2008-12-24T02:36:48Z")
> [@ITR Champion](#): > > 1. B. Some atheists will claim that Galileo was threatened with torture, tortured, or threatened with death. All of this if is flatly false. :rolleyes: It is not flatly false, as even the slightest bit of research would show. It’s not like you have to look very far to find this out, all you have to do is look at the official decree of the church, which in describing the trial, states _etiam comminata ei tortura,_ “and also having threatened him with torture.” Torture was not hidden back then; it was considered a valid way to extract a confession. From the transcript of the trial: Maculano: I repeat. From the nature of the book, you are believed to have held the opinion of the earth’s movement and the sun’s stability. Unless you tell the truth the Holy Church will resort to the remedies of the law against you. We will take appropriate steps against you. Galileo: I do not hold the opinion of Copernicus. For the rest I am in your hands. Do with me as you please. Maculano: Tell the truth. Otherwise we will have no recourse but torture. Galileo: I am here to obey. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411/80 "2008-12-24T02:44:36Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > What I’m objecting to is the central narrative, which happens to be the one that that website presents, asserting that the Church **tried to silence the heliocentric theory because they were afraid that it might prove something in the Bible false**. That’s not what happened, as we can see in the letter by Cardinal Bellarmine (posted on the same site). His argument basically is: > > -The heliocentric theory has some good points, but it has not been proven yet. > > -Therefore at the present time **I reject the heliocentric theory and prefer the geocentric theory, in agreement with scripture** and with the majority of today’s scholars. Er, which is it? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-atheists-to-stop-telling-the-galileo-myth/478411.md?page=5)