# Isn't it time for England to give the Elgin Marbles back to Greece? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420 "2003-04-17T22:30:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2022, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/121 "2022-12-21T15:26:24Z")
\ > [@DrDeth](#): > > Which they have controlled for a short period, and the international community did not recognize it. This is a “whataboutism” argument. No it isn’t, it’s an analogy. A “Whatabout” is where you deflect to some other event or example to avoid talking about the current one. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Note the Ottomans were the recognized government there for about 400 years. But by your own description “the most corrupt Empire on earth”. Which is one reason to not consider the transaction legitimate, and was widely seen as such even at the time. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The other artifacts I listed are looted or stolen outright, not sold by the recognized centuries long rulers. Right, but then why did you even list those others? What’s the point, if it’s not to rhetorically suggest that we should consider those other cases first (i.e.: yes, a “whatabout”)? > [@DrDeth](#): > > The post you decry was made back in 2003, two decades ago. But it’s the same thread. I summed up the arguments of this thread, and you implied that I had done so incorrectly. Now you accept that I was correct but mention the irrelevant fact that some of those posts are very old. ---
**Author:** ![fordgt100](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fordgt100](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fordgt100)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/122 "2023-02-25T11:15:19Z")
We always played keepsies with marbles. The same should be applied to other marbles I guess. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/123 "2023-02-25T17:18:18Z")
Welcome to Straight Dope, fordgt100! > **[British Museum's chairman suggests 'hybrid' deal with Greece over Parthenon...](https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2023/02/17/british-museums-chairman-suggests-new-hybrid-deal-with-greece-over-parthenon-marbles)** > > "I think there is a way forward where the sculptures could be seen both in London and in Athens, and that will be a win-win for Greece and for us,” George Osborne says ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/124 "2023-02-25T19:54:36Z")
If the UK really gave the Elgin marbles back, we’d have to send them to Turkey. Since they were “legally” gotten from the Ottoman Empire, which doesn’t exist anymore. Nor, mind you does the City-State of Athens. So since neither the Ottoman Empire or the City-State of Athens exist, there is no one to give them back to. The current nation of Greece never owned them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/125 "2023-02-25T21:30:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So since neither the Ottoman Empire or the City-State of Athens exist, there is no one to give them back to. The current nation of Greece never owned them. How about the Greek people? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/126 "2023-02-25T21:38:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So since neither the Ottoman Empire or the City-State of Athens exist, there is no one to give them back to. The current nation of Greece never owned them. By that (very specious) logic, Greece has no claim to _any_ temples, statues, or other marbles carved before 1974. Moreover, by that logic there are almost no polities on the planet with a claim to their own cultural antiquities. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/127 "2023-02-25T23:19:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > By that (very specious) logic, Greece has no claim to _any_ temples, statues, or other marbles carved before 1974. Moreover, by that logic there are almost no polities on the planet with a claim to their own cultural antiquities. Sure it does, by the time honored “We have them in our possession”. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2023, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/128 "2023-02-26T00:45:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > time honored “We have them in our possession”. In the excellent John Oliver segment linked above is footage of somebody symbolically stealing (back) one of many artefacts held in a French museum. “He didn’t realize that he was violating one the museum’s rules: No stealing other people’s artefacts, starting… now!” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2023, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/129 "2023-02-26T01:28:42Z")
While there are certainly plenty of artifacts in museums that got there through just plain theft, and it’s certainly reasonable to return those to their proper owners or their heirs, the Elgin Marbles aren’t in that category. They’re as legitimate as it’s possible for a museum artifact to be. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2023, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/130 "2023-02-26T13:03:23Z")
While the Greeks may not have legal basis to demand the Marbles’ return, returning them seems the decent thing to do, if only because the Greek public seems to care about them a _lot_ more than the English public does. I dunno. I get the feeling that the British Museum is mainly holding them out of spite. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/131 "2023-02-26T22:53:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > They’re as legitimate as it’s possible for a museum artifact to be. Are you kidding? The Elgin marbles were controversial when they were originally obtained, at the start of the 19th century, let alone by the standards of today. Esteemed figures such as Lord Byron considered it simple vandalism. Elgin got dubious, disputed authority from a controlling power. I’m open to a debate on where the marbles should be, but to say “legitimate as can be” is quite a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/132 "2023-02-27T01:32:54Z")
Well, how could they have been more legitimate? Was there anyone else with a better claim to ownership that Elgin could have bought them from? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/133 "2023-02-27T01:38:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, how could they have been more legitimate? Was there anyone else with a better claim to ownership that Elgin could have bought them from?. I assume you feel the same way about the Taliban blowing up the **Buddhas of Bamiyan**? Who had a _better claim_ then them? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/134 "2023-02-27T01:51:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, how could they have been more legitimate? Was there anyone else with a better claim to ownership that Elgin could have bought them from? 1. “I can only buy it from X” it itself isn’t a very good argument. The same logic would justify buying Nazi gold for example. In fact, it would justify buying anything from anyone in any circumstances. 2. Then there’s the fact that the methods of removing these pieces was inherently damaging, both to them and the Parthenon. 3. Finally, as I say, even the fact that it was legitimately bought from the ottomans is disputed, the paperwork is not very clear on both sides, and many people at the time were skeptical of the validity of the deal. As I say, I think a debate can be had about the Elgin marbles (though I am in favor of repatriation). But saying they could not be more legitimate? Come on. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2023, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/135 "2023-02-28T00:56:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > - I can only buy it from X” it itself isn’t a very good argument. The same logic would justify buying Nazi gold for example. In fact, it would justify buying anything from anyone in any circumstances. > - Then there’s the fact that the methods of removing these pieces was inherently damaging, both to them and the Parthenon. > - Finally, as I say, even the fact that it was legitimately bought from the ottomans is disputed, the paperwork is not very clear on both sides, and many people at the time were skeptical of the validity of the deal. The Nazis were in power for just about a dozen years, over half of it at war. The Ottomans held Greece for 250 years or so. If we bought stuff from Imperial Russia or Communist Russia, would that be doubtful? That was the state of “archaeology” back then, more or less tomb robbers. Only a few used something that was kinda close to modern archaeology . Was it standard for Ottoman paperwork to be better? It was all graft and corruption. Note that bits of the marble was being burned to get lime, and _It was Lusieri who persuaded the reluctant Elgin to remove the sculptures in order to protect them from local Turkish opportunists, who were breaking off bits to sell to tourists.[[6]_([Giovanni Battista Lusieri - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Battista_Lusieri#cite_note-p287-6)) Not to mention, it was under siege _thrice_ during the wars of Independence. So, perhaps Elgin saved them. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420/136 "2023-03-01T12:29:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, perhaps Elgin saved them. I think that’s probably true, or he at least preserved them in a way that they wouldn’t have been if they’d been left. I don’t think that’s a reason for us to carry on keeping them though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-for-england-to-give-the-elgin-marbles-back-to-greece/169420.md?page=6)