Yes, that is also part of the story told (implicitly, never explicitly!) by the BM collection, and an important one.
An overt attempt to reflect on how these objects came to the museum would be a fascinating lens to view the collection through, but sadly isn’t going to happen.
The crazy thing is that the Museum doesn’t shy away from describing the provenance of the pieces. “Yep, Lord VeryBritish acquired these here marbles with the permission of the Ottoman Empire, which at the time controlled Greece. Greece rebelled only a few years later.” Or the yoinking of the Admonitions Scroll I described above.
No attempt to whitewash the facts, but also no reflection, no introspection. It almost creates a cognitive dissonance.
Did you happen to see the marble tiles? They’re tucked away in one of the rooms set up as a library. Hundreds (maybe thousands?) of small marble tiles, each a different kind. Their purpose is comparative - look at a marble work and find the tile it matches. Then you have a good idea of where the stone was quarried.
“Oh, cool!” I said. “Of course they’d need something like this. Especially when… huh. Especially when they’re looting marbles from so many different places. Oh. Hm.”
You could frame an entire exhibit around those tiles, using them as the lens you describe. But, yeah, unlikely.
I don’t know that “stable” and “uncorrupt” are words that I would use to describe the British government
I hadn’t seen that, but you’re right it’s an absolutely fascinating insight into how the museum works.
And it raises another point. The Marbles, the Rosetta Stone etc are the equivalent of “charismatic megafauna”. Just as the WWF Panda becomes an icon and figurehead for a well-functioning ecosystem because no-one’s going to give for fungus, these eye-catching exhibits are just the apex of a huge collection of artefacts - inscriptions, parchments, beads, pots etc. - which while they don’t have the majesty of the big items do have enormous value to scholars (I believe). And part of that value is that they have all been gathered in one place.
In an era of HD photography and cheapish data this may not such a big deal, but that may not be the same as actually handling these things for yourself. If having such a collection does have scholarly value, then there is every argument for making it available to scholars across the world but there’s also an argument against splitting it up, maybe?
I am sure it is just a matter of time before the Chinese start asking for the return of the loot seized from the Imperial Palace when China was weak prey to western powers with their gunboats. Though this probably saved it from going up in smoke during the Mao’s cultural revolution.
Not every country has the same appetite for persevering heritage and developing cultural institutions. In the UK it is a bit of an obsession. So many museums. Fed by the habit of individuals dedicating their time and money to collecting stuff. Not all them were evil redcoats making off with booty.
I think I will check out the Benin Bronzes before they disappear to somewhere in Nigeria.
Yes, you did not propose any sort of solution at all. Problems without solutions are hardly problems at all (as I think Jerry Brown once said).
Almost like I was just pointing out a glaring error of fact, rather than developing a 12-point action plan…
Good to know you think racist oppression is hardly a problem.
I think most of them weren’t. That’s why I describe it as hubris. It’s more a White Man’s Burden kind of attitude, and it certainly wasn’t limited to British archaeologists. I mentioned the Pergamon Museum (which is in Berlin) as another example of this sort of collection.
But we should be clear that quite a lot of what the British Museum has isn’t the result of archaeology as we think of it - excavating treasures lost beneath dirt and stone. Many of the pieces were either overtly stolen - like the Admonitions Scroll or the Benin Bronzes - or ‘acquired’ from friendly imperial powers by wealthy British diplomats who wanted to leave a legacy behind.
If you want to argue that these rich British folks had a kind of prescience in terms of recognizing the ultimate historical value of these pieces, I won’t argue. And I’d certainly rather see them safely in a museum than bulldozed by extremists.
I went to the museum twice while I was in London, and the second time I was maybe the third or fourth person into the building. I booked it downstairs so that I could sit with them alone for a while. They’re remarkable, and there’s nothing in the world quite like having an exhibit to yourself. When I become a mad billionaire I will absolutely arrange private tours of all the greatest museums in the world.
I combined a few photos for ease of uploading. The right-most picture shows how many drawers there are - presumably each has a slate of 30 tiles in it.
To all, remember attack the post and not the poster.
Making this post is really pushing it outside the Pit.
Please refrain.
I’m lily white, UK born parent and all my grandparents were born in the UK. I can still recognise “problems” and I certainly tend to agree with @MrDibble
Problems without easy solutions are still problematic. You can’t just hand wave them away.
Great photos!
Good news for folks with untreatable cancer, I guess.
That’s right. I’ve been in the Acropolis museum; it already has replicas of the Elgin Marbles in place, and is just waiting for the originals to turn up. Perhaps they can swap the replicas for the British Museum’s originals.
The Athens Museum also has a set of older carvings that date back to an earlier temple; these are the real thing, and are fascinating. I’ve no doubt that Athens would be a good home for both sets of marbles.
You cited Socialist Alternative which bills itself as Australia’s largest Marxist revolutionary group.
… and?
Marxist Revolutionaries don’t have any credibility unless you’re a Marxist Revolutionary.
I’m not a Marxist Revolutionary, and they have plenty of credibility with me.
Sounds to me like you can’t counter any of the actual facts stated in that article. It was full of stats - which do you think weren’t credible?
Was it the data from the ABS? The Guardian newspaper? The AIHW?
Please, do enlighten me as to where this credibility deficit is.
I suggested they make copies upthread. I think this would be a good solution if they already exist. The copies might actually be better as they can compensate for any damage. What it comes down do is whether you want to look at the skill of the original carvers or the antiquity of their work.
A car collector wants an original Shelby Cobra and will pay a million plus dollars. A car enthusiast wants to DRIVE one and a replica is as good or better for a fraction of the price. Are people going to museums to see the beauty of art or the value of it?
The flip side of this is the collector will take extraordinary care of it. So there is some logic to ownership of acquired antiquities for their preservation.
We’ll have to disagree on their credibility.
Facts aren’t opinions. Their facts (and the sources for them) stand unless you have countering cites. Which I doubt, given their sources, as linked to.
Your argument is an obvious genetic fallacy, in other words. Just scaremongering at the words “Marxist” and “Revolutionary”
As for any countering of the actual facts of Australian institutional racism, you’ve got zilch.