# Isn't It Time to Quit Hunting World War II Nazis? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909 "2014-07-24T06:03:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/81 "2014-07-27T04:22:44Z")
You know, maybe instead of prosecuting some old man who was only a minor figure, maybe a better idea is to get them to spill the beans and tell all that they know about the operations. Their are still some gaps in the knowledge of what happened and their memories could serve as valuable tools. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/82 "2014-07-27T05:02:36Z")
I’m okay with continuing the pursuit. Say they find out a wanted Nazi died in 1980. While investigating the circumstances of his post-war years, investigators uncover evidence of a network of Nazi-sympathizers who helped the fugitive. Some members of this network may still be alive. I can’t say I object to this information coming to light. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/83 "2014-07-27T05:19:44Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > Like John Demjanjuk, who was almost certainly not “Ivan the Terrible”, even though he was convicted of being so? Yeah he was only “Ivan the Bloody”! BTW, the above sentence isn’t meant as a joke or parody. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/84 "2014-07-27T07:07:20Z")
I think 70 years is about enough. Do these “Nazi hunters” really have nothing better to do? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/85 "2014-07-27T07:21:43Z")
I think 70 years is about enough. Do these “Nazi hunters” really have nothing better to do? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/86 "2014-07-27T13:11:25Z")
Like double posting to message boards, you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/87 "2014-07-27T14:03:18Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > 1. Deterring others from committing the same offense. There’s a potential point here, but it’s pretty weak. Imprisoning this guy means what - that maybe if you become a death camp guard, it is possible, but very unlikely, that you will be incarcerated in the waning years of your life? Not that great a deterrent. > > The holocaust was an atrocious act. But taking revenge against a handful of elderly people who made, at most, a minimal contribution to it isn’t how to react to it. Yeah, they may have some moral responsibility. But the fact that they are guilty of that doesn’t mean that we need to get medieval on them. If you honestly think anyone who worked at an extermination camp may have “at most” made a minimal contribution to the holocaust, you’re high. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/88 "2014-07-27T16:09:20Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > There is a specific reason these indictments have been pursued these last few years when they were not before: _a new legal theory_ introduced in the May 2011 verdict on John Demjanjuk. That’s sort of the point we are trying to make. Why are “new legal theor[ies]” being invented _seventy years_ after the fact? Because of mission creep. They can’t just pack up and go home; they have to keep scraping the bottom of the barrel, prosecuting people further down the food chain. It won’t end until every German alive in 1945 is dead. Also, while I appreciate Germany taking responsibility for its role in the holocaust, it has no moral authority to prosecute these people. They were acting under the direction of the German government! It would be like Alabama prosecuting a white student for attempting to block the admission of blacks to the University of Alabama in 1963. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/89 "2014-07-27T18:57:27Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > That’s sort of the point we are trying to make. Why are “new legal theor[ies]” being invented _seventy years_ after the fact? Because of mission creep. > > They can’t just pack up and go home; they have to keep scraping the bottom of the barrel, prosecuting people further down the food chain. It won’t end until every German alive in 1945 is dead. Did you even read what the new legal theory (singular) is, or did you stop reading there? Because nothing you wrote follows from it; it does not involve scraping the bottom of the barrel, prosecuting anyone further down the food chain, or any desire to prosecute everyone alive in Germany in 1945 on some vague moral principle. Here, I’ll even repeat the actual legal theory for you: > [@Mops](#): > > The new theory (by the court of first instance in Demjanjuk’s case; not yet tested in any other court because Demjanjuk’s appeal died with him in March 2012 before being decided by the appelate court) is: proof of being on a death camp’s staff roster for a given period of time constitutes proof of being an accessory to all murders in that camp within that period of time. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/90 "2014-07-27T19:36:16Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Did you even read what the new legal theory (singular) is, or did you stop reading there? Because nothing you wrote follows from it; it does not involve scraping the bottom of the barrel, prosecuting anyone further down the food chain, or any desire to prosecute everyone alive in Germany in 1945 on some vague moral principle. Here, I’ll even repeat the actual legal theory for you: Yes it does. The new legal theory states that merely by being on the staff roster of a concentration camp is per se evidence of commission of the atrocities. Previously the state had to show actual crimes being committed. That leads to scraping the bottom of the barrel and it’s only one step removed from “merely being a German citizen shows material support for the atrocities” and the same presumption of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/91 "2014-07-27T21:10:59Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > You misunderstand me a little. When I say “minions” I mean the people actively participating in the genocide. A mailman wouldn’t count, but a triggerman would. Those people, who actively helped perpetrate the murders, are the ones being sought today and would presumably deter others in the future. So where does a guard fall on the spectrum? He’s obviously more complicit than a mailman, but he also wasn’t the one turning the valves on the gas chamber. > [@suranyi](#): > > ETA: We always prosecute murderers when we catch them, no matter how many years since the crime. Why should this be different? It shouldn’t be different. I’d support some kind of statute of limitations even for murder. At any rate, I’m still not convinced that pursuit-until-death would be any kind of motivating factor to not commit war crimes. Suppose the alternative was that we stopped after 25 years. Would anyone really think “Changing my identity and living in fear of capture for 25 years doesn’t sound too bad, but for the rest of my life? I better rethink this!”? > [@Dissonance](#): > > I think you may also not realize just how few people it actually took to carry out mass murder on such a huge scale. The [Einsatzgruppen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen), who were all also there entirely by choice, murdered more than 2 million people, mostly by mass shootings. The number of personnel in the Einsatzgruppen was 3,000. This is a genuine question because obviously I’m fairly ignorant of the structure of Nazi forces–but was Johann Breyer a part of the Einsatzgruppen? The article says he was Waffen SS stationed at Auschwitz, but it’s not clear to me that it implies he was necessarily Einsatzgruppen. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/92 "2014-07-28T01:06:51Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > …This is a genuine question because obviously I’m fairly ignorant of the structure of Nazi forces–but was Johann Breyer a part of the Einsatzgruppen? The article says he was Waffen SS stationed at Auschwitz, but it’s not clear to me that it implies he was necessarily Einsatzgruppen. No, he wasn’t a member of an Einsatzgrupe. Per Dissonance’s post, not many were. They were under the Reich Security Administration at first, and eventually, the SS, but they weren’t part of the SS-TV that ran the concentration and death camps. Breyer was in the SS-TV. Unlike the SS-TV, which drew its membership from the SS, Einsatzgruppen were formed from a wide variety of sources: SS; various police groups like the Orpo and Sipo; native auxiliaries. They followed behind the regular Wehrmacht units they were attached to, and who provided logistical support, like hyenas follow lions. Once the Wehrmacht pushed through an area, the Einsatzgrupe in that area would start gathering together all of the Jews, Communist Party officials, and anyone else the Nazis wanted dead. They then incited pogroms by the locals, and later, when the killing wasn’t going fast enough, took on themselves to organize and carry out massacres like Babi Yar. Breyer, OTOH, volunteered/got drafted by the Waffen SS, which put him in the SS-TV, and shipped him to Buchenwald to be a guard. When he pissed off the commandant there, he got transferred to Auschwitz, also as a perimeter guard. He then later deserted his post by not coming back from a family leave, and then rejoined the Waffen SS, fighting in a combat unit during the last days of the Reich. The opinions for his numerous legal cases, as the US tried to kick him out, are fascinating reading. Differences as I see it between his job at Buchenwald/Auschwitz and an Einsatzgrupe member, a camp guard saw brutality and evidence of massive killings of non-combatants, who were killed solely due to their ethnicity (as it wasn’t necessary to be a practicing Jew to be marked for death). It’s more likely than not that he participated in it himself, if such participation was to only actively threaten an inmate. I don’t think it’s inevitable that he would have though, however, especially given the facts in his case. As a member of an Einsatzgrupe, on the other hand, I’d need iron-clad evidence that he did not directly solicit or cause the murders of at least hundreds of people, to believe he wasn’t guilty of a war crime. I’d still want evidence tying him to a criminal act before I would convict him of a war crime but it would stretch credulity for me to think he didn’t commit any at all. The groups were too small, they killed too many people, for me to think an Einsatzgrupe member was busy having a smoke the whole time his buddies rounded up a couple of hundred Jews and Slavs and machine gunned them ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/93 "2014-07-28T14:54:01Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Yes it does. The new legal theory states that merely by being on the staff roster of a concentration camp is per se evidence of commission of the atrocities. Previously the state had to show actual crimes being committed. And again there’s that misuse of the word concentration camp. It isn’t even the word used in **Mops** quote, we are not talking about the concentration camps. We are talking about the death camps or extermination camps. That name is all that went on in them; their only purpose was the mass extermination of Jews and other racial undesirables on a truly horrific scale. So yes, it’s a perfectly reasonable legal theory that being posted to a death camp is per se evidence of complicity in mass murder. There was no other function to the camps aside from committing mass murder. These were the death camps set up from late 1941 to commit genocide at, not the prewar concentration camps to throw political opponents and racial scapegoats into. > [@jtgain](#): > > That leads to scraping the bottom of the barrel and it’s only one step removed from “merely being a German citizen shows material support for the atrocities” and the same presumption of guilt. The fuck it does, and this statement shows just how ignorant you are about the topic you keep yammering about. Being a member of the SS-TV posted on the roster at a death camp is about as far from one step removed from “merely being a German citizen” can be in terms of providing material support for atrocities. There was only one reason to be posted to a death camp. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/94 "2014-07-29T01:04:32Z")
If I had to sum up my general take on it, the time to stop hunting World War II Nazis is when there are no longer any WWII Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/95 "2014-07-29T03:12:45Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > And again there’s that misuse of the word concentration camp. It isn’t even the word used in **Mops** quote, we are not talking about the concentration camps. We are talking about the death camps or extermination camps. That name is all that went on in them; their only purpose was the mass extermination of Jews and other racial undesirables on a truly horrific scale. So yes, it’s a perfectly reasonable legal theory that being posted to a death camp is per se evidence of complicity in mass murder. There was no other function to the camps aside from committing mass murder. These were the death camps set up from late 1941 to commit genocide at, not the prewar concentration camps to throw political opponents and racial scapegoats into. So where is the demarcation line and who decides where that is? As was posted upthread, the mailman who delivered mail to Auschwitz saw the crematoria and the mass graves (or it should be assumed he did under this new theory). Communication by mail was essential for the functioning of these camps. Without the mailman’s service, there would be no functioning death camps. However, you seem to agree that this would be absurd to try the mailman for crimes against humanity. But if a guy was a janitor at Auschwitz and his name mistakenly made it on the roster, he is now per se guilty. He has no way of making a case in his defense because evidence has disappeared in the past _seventy_ fucking years. Anyone who could show his innocence is likely dead and records are lost. Also you make much of the difference between death camps and concentration camps. Although the latter is subjectively better in the sense that I would rather be shot than drowned, the guards at the latter would seem to get a free pass even though they imprisoned people in deplorable conditions knowing that thousands would die from malnutrition and overwork. This new “standard” is rootless, malleable, is over and under inclusive, and denies everyone accused under it basic due process rights. It only serves to keep the “Nazi hunters” from getting real jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/96 "2014-07-29T03:37:48Z")
As **Mops** pointed out upthread, there’s a particular legal reason there’s a mass of [new or reopened investigations in the past few months:](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/world/europe/chasing-death-camp-guards-with-virtual-tools.html?_r=0) > [@](#): > > After years of relative inaction, German prosecutors have opened dozens of fresh investigations of men and women suspected of having served as Nazi death camp guards, racing against the clock to bring the aging suspects to justice. Not since the end of World War II have so many cases been initiated at once. > > The surge of cases is […] given a legal opening with the 2011 conviction of John Demjanjuk […] > > The crucial precedent was provided by the Demjanjuk case, in which a Munich state court convicted the former death camp guard of accessory to the murder of all 28,060 people who died during the time he served there. That ruling overturned a precedent that had required evidence linking suspects to a specific killing, which had stood since 1969. […] > > But while the Demjanjuk ruling removed the burden of linking guards to a specific death, prosecutors continue to face the burden of proving what suspects knew about the industrial-scale killing taking place around them. […] > > Using digital technology, [state prosecutor Ralf Dietrich] created a three-dimensional model of Auschwitz-Birkenau, with the help of officials in Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria, that allows for a 360-degree view of the camp. It can be programmed to show what an individual guard could have seen from a specific vantage point, even including the window of the kitchen where Mr. Lipschis said he served as a cook. > > “We had to prove more than just that he was present,” Mr. Dietrich said. > > “Many former guards say that they didn’t know anything because they couldn’t see from where they were serving,” Mr. Dietrich added. “This allows us to go in and look at whether that is true. What could one see from a watchtower? Could you see the chimneys of the crematoria? Could you see smoke?” […] > > The one obstacle Mr. Dietrich could not overcome, however, was the advanced age of the defendant, who was ruled to have the onset of dementia, rendering him incapable of following the “difficult individual charges” against him. On Feb. 28, the state court in the German city of Ellwangen dismissed the case. […] > > Such an approach reflects the generational shift in Germany’s justice system, which for decades seemed unwilling to seek new ways to prosecute former guards, said Nathan Stoltzfus, a professor of history at Florida State University. “It shows what you can do with a concerted effort to get a conviction,” he said. Like I said, I’m all in favor of prosecuting war crimes as a general thing. But this desperate race against time just to make a circumstantial argument that a bunch of extremely old and mostly sick or incapacitated persons, who are not even being accused of any **specific** crimes in the death camps, can plausibly be accused of having had clearer awareness of the **general** crimes in the death camps than they’ve been willing to admit… …is this really such a triumphant victory for truth and justice as all that? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/97 "2014-07-29T03:45:09Z")
I think I’d argue that being a member of the SS and working in the death camps IS a specific crime. The SS was a criminal organization, and the extermination camps were crimes against humanity, so membership in the one and employment in the other is criminal. That includes the janitor. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/98 "2014-07-29T04:02:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That includes the janitor. But not the mailman who kept Auschwitz running just as much as the janitor? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/99 "2014-07-29T04:12:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think I’d argue that being a member of the SS and working in the death camps IS a specific crime. The SS was a criminal organization, and the extermination camps were crimes against humanity, so membership in the one and employment in the other is criminal. That includes the janitor. But that’s not how we normally consider crimes. Usually factors like intent and/or awareness are crucial. If I knowingly abet a crime, sure that’s a crime. Or if I choose to look the other way, that’s a (lesser) crime. Now it’s probably true that to work there you _probably_ had to do one of the above, if not directly be a murderer yourself. But that doesn’t mean we can just declare “If there, then guilty”. If someone claims they had no awareness of the crimes, or tried to stop them or whatever, yeah the prosecution has to find counter-arguments or evidence. And as I said upthread, I think such evidence really needs to be gathered in advance for these kinds of cases. It’s in no-one’s interest to extradite some frail old man, get him in the dock, only to say “We really don’t know if you committed any crimes. You’re free to go and be ostracized for your remaining days”. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909/100 "2014-07-29T04:18:11Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Now it’s probably true that to work there you _probably_ had to do one of the above, if not directly be a murderer yourself. But that doesn’t mean we can just declare “If there, then guilty”. If someone claims they had no awareness of the crimes, or tried to stop them or whatever, yeah the prosecution has to find counter-arguments or evidence. Right. What if the janitor said that once he became aware of the exterminations, he immediately asked to be transferred and told everyone that they were crazy for doing this. Then the commandant had a little chat with him and told him that if he enjoyed continuing to breathe oxygen, he would mop the floors and keep his mouth shut. Not good enough? Still guilty for being on the roster? No innocent until proven guilty? Even if he can call witnesses in his defense, they are likely all dead. What sort of justice is that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-it-time-to-quit-hunting-world-war-ii-nazis/693909.md?page=6)