# Isn't pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth strange? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2005, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507 "2005-05-05T08:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/21 "2005-05-06T01:01:17Z")
Moving this from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/22 "2005-05-06T02:07:31Z")
> [@Jeep's Phoenix](#): > > And thus defeat the entire purpose of the War of Northern Aggresssion? Why yes. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/23 "2005-05-06T02:47:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Captain Amazing: I think the south should have been allowed to secede. Ok. I don’t, and neither did Mr. Bellamy. You’re free to write your own pledge glorifying traitorous slaveholders and claiming the US is a tyrranical hegemon, though. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/24 "2005-05-06T03:50:52Z")
To an outsider, the pledge does seem very creepy. Over the years of reading this board I have learnt much about the way things are done in the USA. Most are quite surprising. I asked a while ago about the pledge and discovered it was still recited in schools. Based on \*\*quicksilvers \*\* post, it sounds like it recited elsewhere. Is it recited at sporting events, public gatherings, etc? On freedom, it is strange how the USA president and others keeps talking up US freedom, when it appears to me the level of freedom of US citizens is fairly low on the international scale. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/25 "2005-05-06T04:34:37Z")
Citizens in the States do have a lot of freedom, but not nearly as much as we should. We have some silly ways of lying to ourselves about what is our business to control and what is not. I have a certain sense of loyalty to the country, but I can’t pledge my allegiance anymore because I have no way of knowing what foolish thing my country will do next. There are allegiances that are still dearer to me. Why require _anyone_ to say the Pledge? The most corrupt traitor would not hesitate to say it with great fervor. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/26 "2005-05-06T04:52:59Z")
Well, the pledge is to the “flag of the USA and the republic for which it stands.” But I don’t say it any more and just stand silently when it is called for. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/27 "2005-05-06T05:57:02Z")
I find it creepy. Americans even do it in Masonic Lodges, which is very creepy indeed. If it is an oath of allegiance then it existence implies a sort of paranoia or lack of self-confidence. If it is a meaningless ritual then its use is even weirder. You do not see this sort of stuff in other countries. I wonder why we Americans so like to wave the flag. Some sort of militaristic chip on our collective shoulder? To over-compensate for some sort of feelings of inadequacy? Don’t even get me started on patriotic music. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/28 "2005-05-06T06:11:27Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I find it creepy. Americans even do it in Masonic Lodges, which is very creepy indeed. > > If it is an oath of allegiance then it existence implies a sort of paranoia or lack of self-confidence. If it is a meaningless ritual then its use is even weirder. > > You do not see this sort of stuff in other countries. I wonder why we Americans so like to wave the flag. Some sort of militaristic chip on our collective shoulder? To over-compensate for some sort of feelings of inadequacy? > > Don’t even get me started on patriotic music. I guess you haven’t seen the bumper stickers. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/29 "2005-05-06T06:54:37Z")
Personally, I think all countries should try and create a sense of patriotism within their nations. Simply, I generally view patriotism as meaning that you care about the future of the nation and will actively attempt to improve it and make it better–rather than that the government is holy and we must all turn off our brains for the sake of our nation. I agree, however, that I am not certain the Pledge of Allegiance does anything towards promoting my brand of patriotism. Things more along the lines of studying why the US has come to take over so many fields in the world and trying to get the students to debate what those were and to debate those which (for instance, mass dishonesty towards the native Americans) were not terribly ethical–so how are we to instead succeed without resorting to such again? Course then you have to worry about indoctrination into the teachers personal value set. :dubious: But in general, more time spent arguing real issues is better than repeating a set text every day. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/30 "2005-05-06T08:45:46Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I find it creepy. Americans even do it in Masonic Lodges, which is very creepy indeed. > > If it is an oath of allegiance then it existence implies a sort of paranoia or lack of self-confidence. If it is a meaningless ritual then its use is even weirder. > > You do not see this sort of stuff in other countries. I wonder why we Americans so like to wave the flag. Some sort of militaristic chip on our collective shoulder? To over-compensate for some sort of feelings of inadequacy? > > Don’t even get me started on patriotic music. Having to say it in a masonic lodge is what precipitated this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/31 "2005-05-06T09:30:52Z")
Actually, as a kid I was bothered by having to pledge my allegiance to what I mentally referred to as “a hunk of cloth”. I had no problem with pledging allegiance to America, and the phrase “under God” didn’t bother me. When we recited the Pledge of Allegiance before school started each day, I would, however, try to drop a few words so that I said, “I pledge allegiance to . . . the United States of America . . .” As for pressure to say it, for me, of course there was. You see, I’m an immigrant from England. America’s Bicentennial and the Falklands War both occurred while I was in school. As it was, I was accused of being unpatriotic or not really American because my family wasn’t just like everyone else in the small towns whose kids went to the school. (I was also a bit wierd.) The Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts start by saying the Pledge of Allegiance, and there are organizations made up of adults which do so. I’m pretty sure Lions Club meetings start off with it, or at least they used to. Not saying the Pledge of Allegiance is seen as a bit subversive or, again, not really American. Come on! In late 2000, I worked at a place where _Democrats_ were seen as un-American and/or stupid! I admit I most un-Americanly took advantage of my slight British accent to let a fellow who was enchanted by it know as gently as I could that it was possible to be intelligent and not be a Republican. 😉 Heaven knows what they would have thought if they knew my opinion of the pledge! CJ ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/32 "2005-05-06T09:53:43Z")
My vote goes for creepy also, especially when seeing kids doing rote recitation at school. It reminds me of film I saw of kids in Mao’s China when I was a kid. I went to a PTA meeting recently and they even kicked that off with the pledge. (I’m a Brit living in America). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/33 "2005-05-06T10:12:49Z")
It might not be so bad if the flag would ever speak up and tell me what I actually needed to do to fulfill my obligation, but all it ever does is sit there in smug silence. Erek ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/34 "2005-05-06T10:30:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > There are other reasons I’m bothered. Other than it’s state indoctrination, and being forced to pledge allegiance to anything is a violation of my freedom. Another reason I am bothered is because it is idolatry, a sin that I am profoundly against. I don’t like the idea of the “one nation under god”, because we are under god, within god, over god, through god, next to god, before god, after god, parallel to god, etc… Next because it is clearly a battle march telling us not to stop until the entire world is united under a single flag. Semantically there’s a significant difference between “one nation, under God” and “\*\*the \*\* one nation, under God”. If the word “the” was actually in the pledge, it would mean that it’s the _only_ nation under God…but even then it doesn’t necessarily mean that the rest of the world should be taken over, it might just mean the rest of the world is Godless so the US is the only one under God. :dubious: The “the” isn’t there, so it means only that this particular nation is in fact under God. I stopped saying the pledge as soon as we were given the option to stand quietly instead (sometime in middle school) but not because I found the pledge creepy. I just thought it was a waste of time to do it every damn morning, as if skipping a day was going to weaken the country. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/35 "2005-05-06T16:13:01Z")
I’d like to know exactly who feels better about forcing children to stand and recite this trite drivel every day. Is it supposed to strengthen the country? Encourage xenophobia? Some people act like Moses came down the mountain bearing the Pledge and that if you don’t think it’s the most important thing on earth then you are a threat to national security. Personally, I’ve taken the pledge never to recite that crap again. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/36 "2005-05-06T21:50:20Z")
It sure is strange. It used to be that one pledged alligence to an individual or a party. It’s very strange to pledge alligence to some inanimate flag or some state. Marc ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/37 "2005-05-07T00:42:10Z")
I’m not going to say the pledge anymore. Certainly, I never thought about it when I was a kid, but now it just seems bizarre and unnecessary to me. ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/38 "2005-05-07T02:56:01Z")
I’m not sure where to start. I have been coming here and lurking for quite a while and have enjoyed the wealth of knowledge that exists here. Having said that, I cannot belive that so many seemingly intelligent people are using their knowledge to over anylize something as straightforward as the pledge of allegiance. This whole argument seems rediculous to me. The pledge is not merely to a piece of cloth, allegiance is pledged to the country, the flag is simply a symbolic representation of the country itself. I don’t wake up every morning and recite the pledge, sing the national anthem, and raise a flag, but when I am somewhere that the pledge is being recited, I join in. I am not doing it out of an uncontrollable urge brought on by systematic programming, I am doing it out of a love for my country and a pride in its heritage. To those that hate America and its role in the world, both past and present, this will seem like a rediculous concept, to me it is as simple as being proud of who you are, where you came from, and how you got there. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/39 "2005-05-07T03:27:59Z")
> [@brassballs](#): > > I’m not sure where to start. I have been coming here and lurking for quite a while and have enjoyed the wealth of knowledge that exists here. Having said that, I cannot belive that so many seemingly intelligent people are using their knowledge to over anylize something as straightforward as the pledge of allegiance. This whole argument seems rediculous to me. The pledge is not merely to a piece of cloth, allegiance is pledged to the country, the flag is simply a symbolic representation of the country itself. > > I don’t wake up every morning and recite the pledge, sing the national anthem, and raise a flag, but when I am somewhere that the pledge is being recited, I join in. I am not doing it out of an uncontrollable urge brought on by systematic programming, I am doing it out of a love for my country and a pride in its heritage. To those that hate America and its role in the world, both past and present, this will seem like a rediculous concept, to me it is as simple as being proud of who you are, where you came from, and how you got there. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean it sincerely, but you are not a 5 year old child completely lacking any context for understanding what a nation state IS, let alone pledging allegiance to it. But the words ARE “I pledge allegiance to the FLAG of the United States of America AND to the Republic for which it stands…” So you aer pledging both to the flag and to the republic. Flags are tools used to claim territory. America takes flag waving to a fetishistic level. Perhaps you don’t like to think more deeply about certain subjects, but it hardly speaks against people’s intelligence who DO like to think more deeply about such subjects. I feel no loyalty to this government, it clearly feels no loyalty toward me. Erek ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/40 "2005-05-07T03:55:03Z")
No loyalty to this government or to this country? I would hope it is the former rather than the latter. However, if it is not, perhaps you can find another country that is more suited to your liking. Good luck. And as for the first portion of your post, it is rediculous to symantically pick things like the pledge apart. The intent of the pledge of allegience is clear, and it is certainly not to bow before an inanimate piece of cloth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507.md?page=3)