# Isn't pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth strange? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2005, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507 "2005-05-05T08:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/41 "2005-05-07T04:07:13Z")
Also, your comment about giving me the benefit of the doubt with regards to my sincerity seemed to me like a veiled insult. On the flipside of that argument, I belive that you and your ilk make arguments like this one simply to make a statement against something or someone (the government in this instance) that you resent or disagree with. All the talk of your lack of freedoms, busted up parties (gasp), and strip searches lead me to believe that you have a larger issue and the pledge of allegiance is just a way to open a dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/42 "2005-05-07T04:07:24Z")
> [@brassballs](#): > > I’m not sure where to start. I have been coming here and lurking for quite a while and have enjoyed the wealth of knowledge that exists here. Having said that, I cannot belive that so many seemingly intelligent people are using their knowledge to over anylize something as straightforward as the pledge of allegiance. This whole argument seems rediculous to me. The pledge is not merely to a piece of cloth, allegiance is pledged to the country, the flag is simply a symbolic representation of the country itself. > > I don’t wake up every morning and recite the pledge, sing the national anthem, and raise a flag, but when I am somewhere that the pledge is being recited, I join in. I am not doing it out of an uncontrollable urge brought on by systematic programming, I am doing it out of a love for my country and a pride in its heritage. To those that hate America and its role in the world, both past and present, this will seem like a rediculous concept, to me it is as simple as being proud of who you are, where you came from, and how you got there. I am with you. I don’t give a rat’s ass about a peice of cloth any more than the wood pulp of a Bible, Tora or Koran. They are just different symbols of different groupings of beliefs. If you wish, we will attempt to wedge the acutual USA into the town hall meeting or whatever if that would make it easier for you than a symbol. I, for one, Do pledge my allegiance to the United States, my country, the one I owe, the one I love. I don’t require your participation, or your approval. I will teach my son to understand what his country means, accomplishments and mistakes, and instill in him the pride I feel to be privleged enough to be a member of what I think is the greatest nation in human history. Say it, don’t say it. Who cares really. And part of that greatness is why you have the right **not** to say the pledge. I do freely and enthusiastically. ---
**Author:** ![theRanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@theRanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theRanger)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/43 "2005-05-07T04:14:28Z")
OK, so maybe rewriting the pledge would solve some people’s misgivings? Certainly several of those posed in the OP, I think. I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America And to the principles it embodies: one nation, many peoples, with liberty and justice for all. Feel free to pick it apart, or propose better. I tried to stay within the same general length and rhythm as the original. ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/44 "2005-05-07T04:19:54Z")
Nicodemus2004, its nice to see someone who shares my sentiment. And like you, I have raised both my sons to be proud Americans like myself. The beauty of the whole system is that should they grow up and not want to participate (no matter how improbable that is) they will have the right to refrain. ---
**Author:** ![theRanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@theRanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theRanger)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/45 "2005-05-07T04:28:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > American global economic hegemony is what I mean by having taken over the world… We use our economic clout to affect policy of other countries all the time. > > McDonald’s and CNN are all over the globe. American movies are watched everywhere in the world except for maybe North Korea. Yes, we use our diminishing economic clout to affect the policies of other nations. It is, in fact, a modern example that China is learning well. But hegemony? Ha! The examples given are of cultural influence, not control. They no more represent empire than the fact that I am drinking red wine makes me Italian. The fact that there are KFC restaurants in Beijing does not give us control or influence there… Or else, maybe we should be afraid! Very afraid. For I am very sure the number of Chinese restaurants in the US outnumbers the number of McDonalds here (let alone there), though I can’t give a cite. ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/46 "2005-05-07T04:30:05Z")
theRanger, had that been composed and accepted as the pledge, I would be as willing to recite it as I am the current incarnation. I suspect that the OP and others that posted here would still have a problem with it. The OP stated that he feels no sense of loyalty to his government, and I belive that this entire issue has less to do with the flag being cloth, and more about that underlying issue. You could replace the flag or pledge with most anything and if the end result was pledging ones allegiance, some would still have a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![theRanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@theRanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theRanger)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/47 "2005-05-07T04:38:15Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Personally, I think all countries should try and create a sense of patriotism within their nations. I realize you went on to define patriotism in uncommon terms, Rat, but it reminds of the definition of someone who might be seen as an earlier Cecil in temperament and style. > [@Ambrose Bierce](#): > > PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish read to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. > > In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/48 "2005-05-07T04:40:43Z")
> [@theRanger](#): > > OK, so maybe rewriting the pledge would solve some people’s misgivings? Certainly several of those posed in the OP, I think. > I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America > And to the principles it embodies: > one nation, > many peoples, > with liberty and justice for all. > Feel free to pick it apart, or propose better. I tried to stay within the same general length and rhythm as the original. That’s certainly better, but a free country doesn’t require allegiance, that’s partly my problem. Nicodemus2004: Fine, you teach your kid that the country means that. To me the ideals of liberty are of higher value than the government that takes it away. I don’t owe allegiance to this country at all. I don’t have to choose other countries either, that kind of jingoism doesn’t sway me in the slightest. This country was built on some great ideals that it never actually lived up to. I think that the idea of the nation-state is a flawed concept, and that it must be evolved away from. I cannot pick allegiance to one country or another, I have an allegiance to the human race as a whole. For instance, I have more allegiance to my Israeli ex-wife than I do to any of you. I have many friends who are foreigners, allegiance to my ‘country’ would mean that we have opposing allegiances, something I disagree with fundamentally. I watch this country persecute people on a regular basis, it’s policies rarely reflect my actual beliefs. And last but not least. Nope, this thread was started just about the pledge not some bigger issue, and it wasn’t a debate originally, I posted it in IMHO. It became a debate when it was hijacked by those other issues. When I was a child, I suffered abuse from my step-mother, she frequently used the police against me in order to further her abuse. Try being 13 years old and being explained that you have no rights, and that the only person who is really a thread to you has every right to hit you with telephones, belts, wires, whatever they like by multiple police officers. I realized very early on that there was no such thing as the “United States of America” there were only people with political power and people without. I realized that in order to do what I want, I had to attain political power of some kind or another. However, I was mesmerized by the ideals presented me in the same schools that affirmed my belief that the government was actually in opposition to those ideals, and that most of the citizens were as well. Thus far, nothing has changed my belief as such, in fact these boards have shown me that most people are actually opposed to liberty, and no, I don’t have such an extreme belief in liberty that would equate to allowing murder and rape. I simply believe that I should be allowed to do whatever I want as long as those I am doing it with are in agreement, and that I not be forced to pay to further someone else’s political agendas. In my opinion, if your belief in freedom is any less than this, then you are not an American and I will not swear allegiance to a country where decisions are made by people who do not believe in liberty as I would define it. The simple fact is that the Bush administration has more allegiance to the Saudi Royal family than they do to me, therefore George W Bush is not MY president, but merely a very politically powerful individual with whom I must share this landmass. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/49 "2005-05-07T04:42:48Z")
**brassballs** - I noticed the “Guest” under your user name. I would encourage you to sign up as a Mamber. We need more voices of reason like your own to help keep a balance. **theRanger** - I agree that it seems to be much adu about the phrasing of the PoA not enough about the spirit of the pledge. However, the quickness and ease with which so many turned their backs and hearts on _their_ country is what I find to be the most creepy aspect of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![theRanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@theRanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theRanger)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/50 "2005-05-07T04:49:12Z")
I don’t know, Brass. (Or is it M. Balls?) I don’t mean to play semantic games, but the Constitution is an embodiment of a particular set of ideals, including the fact that it is a living document that incorporates the procedures for improving it. So, it could mean many things to many people yet inspire them with a sense of unity and hope. Even those who think we’ve gone far astray (and in many circumstances and ways I am one of them) can draw hope from the basic bones of the plan, and from the possibilities, while deploring the current state, or State, of the Republic. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/51 "2005-05-07T04:54:01Z")
> [@Nicodemus2004](#): > > **brassballs** - I noticed the “Guest” under your user name. I would encourage you to sign up as a Mamber. We need more voices of reason like your own to help keep a balance. > > **theRanger** - I agree that it seems to be much adu about the phrasing of the PoA not enough about the spirit of the pledge. However, the quickness and ease with which so many turned their backs and hearts on _their_ country is what I find to be the most creepy aspect of this thread. I didn’t turn my back on MY country, and if I didn’t it certainly wasn’t quickly. But in order to have allegiance to one thing, I have to NOT have allegiance to another, and I’m sorry to disappoint, but you aren’t more important to me than ANY citizen of Iran. You’re a stranger, so are they. I’d be willing to bet that there are SOME Iranians who are more aligned with me than you are, in which case I’d be more apt to swear allegiance to THEM than to you. Erek ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/52 "2005-05-07T05:03:56Z")
To the OP, it is a shame that anyone have things like you experienced as a child happen to them in this country. I am sickened whenever I hear of anything like that, as I have two sons myself and can’t imagine such atrocities being comitted against them. That being said, I am still proud of my country and incidents like the ones you described, while terrible, are not the norm in American culture. There are far worse things happening to children across the globe a lot of which happens with a wink and a nod from governments and other adults. We here in this country strive like few other places to protect children from harm at any cost. Nicodemus2004, I just joined and will be joining as a paying member before my free month expires, thank-you for welcoming me. I look forward to debating issues with some of the great minds here. ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/53 "2005-05-07T05:19:35Z")
theRanger, I agree that one can be disenchanted with the current administration or unhappy about the state of the Union, but the issue of loyalty to the country is a seperate issue. Loyalty to the country is what gives one the hope that they, as an individual, can make a difference for the better as they see it. The issues addressed in this thread by the OP are all over the map and have less to do with pledging allegiance to a flag than they do with other political and personal issues. I broughr this point up already and it has yet to be addressed by the OP. If a person is as dissatisfied as the OP obviously is, why is it not okay to say that is the reason he refuses to pledge allegience rather than making it an issue that implies that those who do pledge their allegince are lemmings or in some way intellectually inferior. I understand it is easier to make it an intellectual issue rather than one rooted in personal tragedy or disagreement with the government. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/54 "2005-05-07T05:20:43Z")
> [@brassballs](#): > > To the OP, it is a shame that anyone have things like you experienced as a child happen to them in this country. I am sickened whenever I hear of anything like that, as I have two sons myself and can’t imagine such atrocities being comitted against them. That being said, I am still proud of my country and incidents like the ones you described, while terrible, are not the norm in American culture. There are far worse things happening to children across the globe a lot of which happens with a wink and a nod from governments and other adults. We here in this country strive like few other places to protect children from harm at any cost. We pay lip service to protecting children at any cost. Mostly this country pays lip service to anything. I’d believe it if I didn’t see kids getting arrested all the time for drug offenses. If I didn’t see kids being suspended for mouthing off to the principal after they stopped him from talking to his mother in Iraq. I’d believe it if we didn’t allow corporations to dump mercury into the water supply. I’d believe it if children were not put into horrible foster situations. I’d believe it if schools opened at 9AM and ran through normal business hours rather than causing the latch key kid problem. As I said, this was explained to me by multiple cops, not just one two or three. Here’s a simple litmus test as to whether or not I can swear allegiance to you. Do you believe that I have the right to import 200 kilos of heroin and sell it to adults that want it? If the answer is no, you are my enemy. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/55 "2005-05-07T05:23:02Z")
brassballs: No I genuinely wanted the thread to be about the pledge. I don’t like the pledge specifically. If I wanted to start a thread about what I dislike about America, I would. This one just happened to go in that direction, and I didn’t fight it because I didn’t have a whole lot more to say about my problems with the pledge. Erek ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/56 "2005-05-07T05:48:30Z")
I don’t quite know how to debate an individual who claims to be my enemy if I disagree with his importation and distribution of 200 kg. of Heroine. To answer that question, nice to meet you, I am the enemy (by your qualifier). I have children that I am doing my best to raise and protect, and drugs are one thing that I will try to educate them about and protect them from. I am by no means saying that I will prevent their eventual experimentation with drugs, but I hope to instill in them a solid foundation and set of morals with which they can draw upon to make those decisions for themselves. I never asked you or anyone else for that matter to pledge allegience to me, as I have not done anything for you specifically to warrant your praise, your country on the other hand… And to address all the ramblings in your other post, please elaborate on some of your examples. Mercury levels in water? What is your point there? How is that a direct assault on children? A child suspended for mouthing off to the principal after being stopped from talking to his mother in Iraq? Where did that come from, and what does it have to do with the context of this discussion? And what was your point regarding kids arrested for drug offenses? We shouldn’t arrest them, or they shouldn’t have access to the dope? I’m confused because you stated in your next post that you would like to reserve the right to import 200kg. of Heroine. Maybe I’m not getting it. Enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/57 "2005-05-07T11:48:37Z")
**brassballs** , perhaps you overlooked the words “as a kid” in what I wrote. I was a bright, curious, questioning child who didn’t stand a chance of fitting in. (My favorite food was and is Toad-in-the-hole, a dish not commonly found in southwestern Pennsylvania, although there are plenty of places where you can get pierogies.😉 ) As a girl of around 10 or 12, it struck me as rather odd that, instead of pledging my loyalty directly to America, I was doing so to the flag. The British don’t revere the Union Jack the way Americans revere the flag – just check out the bits BBC America uses for station identification if you don’t believe me. Even if they did, the cultural influences I was surrounded by at the time would have made me less aware of them. When I was 11 years old, America celebrate our Bicentennial. A wave of incredible patriotic fervor swept the country, or at least my small town, and everywhere you went, red, white, and blue, the American flag, and the glory of America dominated. America was truly the greatest nation on earth and her birth and liberation from oppression was marvelous! There was just one slight problem which I, personally, ran into. You see, to be liberated from oppressors, one must have oppressors. Because I was the oldest child and still acclimatizing to America as were my parents and because my country, England, were the oppressors, not only was I a target, but the story didn’t quite fit right. Sixth graders aren’t taught the nuances of history, or at least they weren’t in my town. In teaching about the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, the story was told from one side only with no hint of any redeeming value about the British. Since I knew the British – my parents and grandparents – couldn’t possibly be as evil as they were mad out to be, I got in the habit of questioning things. When I became an adult and became a citizen, I formally pledged my loyalty and allegiance to America. I still do so. I am proud to be an American and I love this country dearly. I should do, given the time, money and bureaucratic hassle I went through to become a citizen! Trust me, it requires a bit more conscious effort than merely being born here. That said, I still prefer to pledge my loyalty to this nation, and the ideals and dreams which founded her rather than a mere piece of cloth. One of my most treasured possessions is the U.S. flag I was given the day I was naturalized. That flag, however, is only a symbol. It is to the reality that I pledge my allegiance. Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/58 "2005-05-07T13:10:41Z")
Siege, greetings. I am always heartened to hear of or meet immigrants who come to this country, assimilate, and care for this nation. My grandmother was a full-blooded Englishwoman who met my grandfather during World War II and came to this country during that period. I have nothing but respect for those who come here legally, in search of a better life and future, and who become successful, productive members of society. Kudos. Additionally, you basically made my point without knowing it methinks. It isn’t that one pledges allegience to the actual piece of cloth (the flag), as it is a plede to this republic and its ideals. The flag is simply a representation of that. Flags and the like have been used for centuries to represent countries, their conquests, and its peoples. It is not the literal meaning of the pledge for one to bend at the waist in reverence to the mighty stars and bars. It is, however, a symbol of this great nation, and as such, is a way for people who are so inclined, to show their respect. ---
**Author:** ![Kiminy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Kiminy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiminy)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/59 "2005-05-07T17:08:34Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I agree with one aspect of it though. When I see my kids standing up and reciting it during their school assemblies, it does send a shiver down my spine. Those Nazi youth film documentaries start flashing through my mind. I’m with you here. I have not felt comfortable reciting the pledge since I was old enough to understand what the words meant, and I really hate the idea that my kids might be being brainwashed to believe that stuff just because they recite it so often in school. While the words of the pledge itself are somewhat innocuous and well-meaning, it’s the whole tradition-thing that worries me. As “God-fearing” as many people believe this country to be, more kids can recite the Pledge of Allegiance than the Lord’s Prayer. (I’m not saying that we should start having kids recite the Lord’s Prayer–just pointing out a fact.) It also strengthens a belief that God somehow protects us more than any other country, which is a disturbing thought as well. I do realize that it is optional, but we know that kids generally do whatever their friends are doing, and the younger they are, the less likely they are to resist. I generally sit through the pledge when I am present for it, since I don’t even want to pretend to “play along” with it, but I get a lot of glares for doing so, as if other people believe I’m likely to become a spy just because I don’t want to say the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/60 "2005-05-07T17:53:26Z")
> [@Kiminy](#): > > I generally sit through the pledge when I am present for it, since I don’t even want to pretend to “play along” with it, but I get a lot of glares for doing so, as if other people believe I’m likely to become a spy just because I don’t want to say the pledge. Well, they have the assurance of the President of The United States of America that “if you are not with us, you are against us” don’t they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507.md?page=4)