# Isn't pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth strange? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2005, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507 "2005-05-05T08:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/61 "2005-05-08T01:41:01Z")
\ > [@Siege](#): > > There was just one slight problem which I, personally, ran into. You see, to be liberated from oppressors, one must have oppressors. Because I was the oldest child and still acclimatizing to America as were my parents and because my country, England, were the oppressors, not only was I a target, but the story didn’t quite fit right. Sixth graders aren’t taught the nuances of history, or at least they weren’t in my town. In teaching about the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, the story was told from one side only with no hint of any redeeming value about the British. Since I knew the British – my parents and grandparents – couldn’t possibly be as evil as they were mad out to be, I got in the habit of questioning things. I am truely sorry for the hassels you recieved as a child. I know how cruel children can be. And yes, I agree that many times (most times) history is presented in a terribly shallow and one sided mannor. It seem that these days it is better than it was, especially once kids reach Middle and High School. > [@](#): > > When I became an adult and became a citizen, I formally pledged my loyalty and allegiance to America. I still do so. I am proud to be an American and I love this country dearly. I should do, given the time, money and bureaucratic hassle I went through to become a citizen! Trust me, it requires a bit more conscious effort than merely being born here. I know the truth in this statement. Many of those who choose to become Americans know more about American history than most natural-born. I think many immigents are much more aware of the value and meaning as well > [@](#): > > That said, I still prefer to pledge my loyalty to this nation, and the ideals and dreams which founded her rather than a mere piece of cloth. One of my most treasured possessions is the U.S. flag I was given the day I was naturalized. That flag, however, is only a symbol. It is to the reality that I pledge my allegiance. Hear, Hear. I join **brassballs** in welcoming you to the US and citizenship! I think we are in agreement on the importance we place on our pledge to our country and are not simple enough to think it is the cloth to which we pledge our a loyalty. > [@mswas](#): > > I’d be willing to bet that there are SOME Iranians who are more aligned with me than you are, in which case I’d be more apt to swear allegiance to THEM than to you. Of this I have little doubt or regret ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/62 "2005-05-08T09:01:04Z")
**brassballs, Nicodemus2004** , welcome to the United States yourselves. I don’t know about you two, but I’ve been a citizen for nearly 20 years and while I may still be proud, I’m hardly a new American. Honestly, your tone sounded slightly patronizing. You two missed my point entirely. I do not pledge allegiance to the flag. I pledge my allegiance to the United States herself, faults and all. I also strongly object to the silent shunning or impugning the patriotism of those who aren’t comfortable reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or wonder what their intent is. As I said, what I objected to in grade school was I felt like I was pledging my allegiance to the flag only, not to the country and it did strike me as strange. I’m leery of extravagant displays of patriotism. I’m also aware that there are people who would question my loyalty to this country because I don’t think the Pledge of Allegiance is a wonderful thing. I’m actually agreeing with **mswas** , rather than you two. Pledging my allegiance to a piece of cloth does strike me as rather strange. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/63 "2005-05-08T09:09:44Z")
> [@Nicodemus2004](#): > > Many of those who choose to become Americans know more about American history than most natural-born. I think many immigents are much more aware of the value and meaning as well. I just wanted to touch on this in particular. You see, my education is _entirely_ American as is my brothers’. Our school educations were neither better nor worse than any other child’s in our small towns. In my case, I may have known less about history than many Americans because I decided history as taught was a bunch of bunk and propoganda which left me with a distaste for the subject. It wasn’t until years later when I fell in love with a history buff that my opinion of it started to change. What you wrote is a platitude and not one I care for. I’m no one’s ideal of a noble, hard-working immigrant; I’m just a middle-aged curmudgeon-in-the-making who’s just trying to make a living while straddling two cultures. When addressing me as an individual, put the broad brush down and walk away. That particular stereotype doesn’t fit. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Badura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Badura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badura)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/64 "2005-05-08T10:46:48Z")
Were this a contest, I’d compare horrible early life experiences with anyone and have high odds of placing in the top five. So, when I see someone attempting to use that trite old spiel as a mitigating factor in what, to my eyes seems a fairly outlandish view of America, I have to raise the BS flag (not made out of cloth, btw, and not requiring any sort of pledge at all). I’ve spent my entire adult life, 24 years to date, in defense of that country called America. Seventeen of those 24 years have been spent outside the United States in some very inhospitable places (and some nice ones). I’ve been shot at, I’ve been spit on, and I’ve watched friends die. I’m not going to demean the sacrifices those young men and women made by claiming here that they died so that people like MSWAS can enjoy the freedom to come on boards like this and declare their disdain for America (and the piece of cloth that represents it). I won’t do it, because I don’t believe it. Young men and women don’t give up their lives for such nebulous ideals…not when the bullets are flying and fear is high. They do it for much more immediate reasons; they do it for the guy or gal right next to them. They do it for their friends. But, there was a time, in the quiet cool of some recruitment station in the middle of anywhere America—before they signed their names on dotted lines, that many of them did consider such ideals. While America is far from perfect today and while there are many things in her past that all Americans should feel shame for, they had the clarity of thought to understand that America had given them and their families everything they had and she deserved something in return. They knew that America represented an ideal that is found no one else in the world and that ideal is under attack both at home and abroad. And they knew that there are a lot people in America who would laugh at them, think them fools, and then go on about their business of importing 200kgs of heroin, whilst enjoying freedoms they themselves are incapable of ever defending. In short, they would have considered the fact that not everyone in America is deserving of their service nor of their potential sacrifices. But they knew that someone had to do it because America, in general, was worth it. All of that is a long way to get around to this. When service men and women are out in the far inhospitable areas of the world, tired, scared, and under fire, sometimes the ONLY thing they have to remind them of why they are where they are is that piece of cloth we call a flag. Its not some nebulous ideal. Not then. It’s a rock solid symbol of whatever it is about America that made them join up and sign their name on that dotted line. Its hope and it’s a promise that they aren’t alone. And for those that feel “weird” that you would be asked to pledge allegiance to that Flag in the comfort of some school or baseball stadium, take a moment to think about what it means to those who are out risking their lives for America…for you. And if after that, you still feel weird. Well, then to hell with you. You aren’t the ones we’re dying for anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/65 "2005-05-08T13:45:45Z")
**mswas** : I’m going to talk about the pledge first, since that’s what the OP was about. > [@](#): > > Well, I am specifically talking about pledging. And there were different schools of thought on it. When I was younger and more easily compelled to say the pledge it was different, but when I was 17, I was pretty free not to, but I can imagine a teacher other than the one I had making it into an issue. I was compelled at different times in school however. The thing is, as a kid, you’re compelled to do a lot of things. Some of them are okay, some of them are bad. The Pledge is just one of these many things, and it isn’t necessarily either good or bad. Some teachers are assholes, true, but a more fundamental issue is that you were just a kid. Hey, it sucks, but I dunno what you expect people to do about it. Give children all the same rights as adults? Then we’d have to give them the same responsibilities, same punishments, same restrictions, etc. In an ideal world, kids would be born with all the knowledge and wisdom in the world, but since we don’t live in such a world, we have to pick and choose what to feed their little minds with while they’re growing up. And the Pledge is really no different than other brainwashing material: Textbooks, the Anthem, the Flag, TV, music, pop culture, fashion… it’s all the same. I’m sorry about what you had to go through as a child, but that’s a worst-case scenario. A family member, child support services, the police… somebody should’ve intervened on your behalf, and unfortunately nobody did. You certainly have some rights as a child, and being free from shit like that is definitely one of them… if only somebody cared enough to actually enforce those rights for you instead of siding with your step-mother. > [@](#): > > However, I do have more of an issue with pledging allegiance to a flag than I would to the country itself. It would be less of an issue if it were pledging allegiance to the United States of America and not a silly flag. To me a flag’s purpose is merely to claim land in wartime, past that it has little purpose, the fact that it’s flying all over the place is kind of disturbing. Err… marking territory is just one use for a flag. It’s not the ONLY use. People also use flags simply as logos for their countries, graphical versions of the names “USA” or “Brazil” or “China”. Do you think flags at soccer games or Olympic events are acts of war, too? Come on, I’m sure you understand that the flags are purely symbolic. What bugs you so much about them? > [@](#): > > I don’t have a problem with the under God part except that it is once again implying subservience to a nebulous authority. I believe in God, so that’s not so much of an issue. My issue with “under God” had more to do with it sounding like nonsense when applying a term like “under” to “God” as though “God” has a specific physical location. It seems more like subtle indoctrination to the state’s authority to say “under God” as though we are to believe that our leaders are guided by God. For one thing, I always thought of “under” as meaning “less than” God. I don’t see a problem with that, unless you think that we are equal to God and not any lower. I’m sorry to put it this way, but if your religious beliefs make you think that we really are parallel/equal to God, then just use your divine powers to remove the pledge from this world. On the other hand, it _does_ seem like our leaders believe we’re somehow “guided” by God, or that we’re a special nation chosen by him. I find this very disturbing, but the Pledge can hardly be blamed for this. Despite the bullshit about separating the church and state, God has a presence everywhere – in our courtrooms, in ours president’s views and speeches, in all the “God Bless America” slogans everywhere, and even printed on the thing we worship most, the almighty dollar. The Pledge is just one of the many symptoms and not the cause. > [@](#): > > The wording also says “With liberty and justice for all.” it doesn’t say “with liberty and justice for all Americans”. Right, but what’s your point? (Don’t mean that as an insult, just not sure what you’re trying to say) > [@](#): > > I mean sure, you can say that it’s just a simple pledge of allegiance to your people, but I don’t think it’s that, and the fact that 5 year olds are being compelled to say it, shows something deeper to me. Stop invoking the think-of-the-children argument. 5 year olds are compelled to do many things, and that by itself does not make the thing bad. It IS a simple pledge of allegiance to your country. You’re reading too much into it. Ok, basically, I certainly see a “creepy” factor in the pledge, but I don’t think it’s really the terrible evil you portray it as. I think we’re just indoctrined the opposite way – made to think that any sign of loyalty to a country is inherently bad, when it doesn’t have to be. Ok, I’m done with the pledge. The rest is about the other stuff: > [@](#): > > Yes, we have to give up some freedoms to have a society, but I think we passed the point of too many freedoms a long time ago. > > Mr. Moto: My definition of freedom is being able to do anything I damn well please that does not hurt other people. Like walking around naked outside, or smoking pot. Fine, but how do you define “as long as it does not hurt other people”? What constitutes “hurting”? Physical injuries, physical discomfort, emotional trauma, minor insults, upsetting their sensibilities… what? Smoking pot and walking around naked might seem fine to you (and to me, too), but not to other people. What about things like public fucking, bestiality, corpse eating, mass suicides, volunteer human sacrifices… they don’t necessarily hurt anyone, but many people find them disturbing. Where and how would you draw the line, or would you at all? > [@](#): > > American global economic hegemony is what I mean by having taken over the world. Yeah, so what? Culture spreads. It’s only natural. It used to be Rome, yesterday it was Britain, today it’s America. Tomorrow it may be any other country. > [@](#): > > This country was built on some great ideals that it never actually lived up to. If only every ideal could be so easily attained. Nonetheless, we’ve tried, and we are still trying. Just because we’re not there yet doesn’t mean we’ll never be, and it doesn’t mean that we’ve _completely_ failed. > [@](#): > > A free country doesn’t require allegiance, that’s partly my problem. I don’t owe allegiance to this country at all. I don’t have to choose other countries either, that kind of jingoism doesn’t sway me in the slightest. I think that the idea of the nation-state is a flawed concept, and that it must be evolved away from. I cannot pick allegiance to one country or another, I have an allegiance to the human race as a whole. For instance, I have more allegiance to my Israeli ex-wife than I do to any of you. I have many friends who are foreigners, allegiance to my ‘country’ would mean that we have opposing allegiances, something I disagree with fundamentally. So _this_ is why you have a problem with the Pledge of Allegiance? It’s not just the pledge or the flag, it’s the entire concept of a “country” that you’re against? Fine. A happily united world is a lofty dream, but one that we seem to be very far away from attaining. When we get there, I’ll happily drop the American flag for one shared by the entire human race. But is that even possible? Unless everybody thinks exactly the same way, there are always going to be different groups separated by differing beliefs. Countries are just a natural extension of that phenomenon. On the other hand, even in the current multi-national world, you can still hold allegiances to different entities – you just have to prioritize them. I am loyal to myself, to those I love, to those I care about, to my state, to my country, and – yes – to the human race as a whole. There is no inherent problem with that unless they start conflicting, in which case I just have to prioritize and decide which one to support in that particular instance. Everybody does this, conciously or not. You still have to do this even if there are no nations. For example, if another man tries to kill your wife, do you just stand there and let him do it because of your allegiance to the human race? Or, if the newly united human race decides that 30% of the population, you included, have to die in order for the rest to survive, would you happily abide by their decision? ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/66 "2005-05-08T15:21:32Z")
**Siege** , if you go back and read my post, you will most certainly find that I was in no way patronizing you, and I am almost positive that **Nicodemus2004** wasn’t either. We were simply congradulating you on becoming a citizen of this country. I made no inference as to how long you had been here or anything of the sort, I was simply being polite. Additionally, I stated that we were in agreement in theory because you love this country (by your own admission) and you stated that you pledge to the country rather than the flag. This is something that I have no problem with. If you choose to think pledging to the flag is rediculous and you pledge your allegience to the nation instead, smashing! As long as you are pledging your allegience then we ARE in fact in agreement. The flag, as I stated several times if you would have bothered to closely read all the posts in this thread, is a mere **symbol** of the nation and is no more powerful on its own than a bedsheet. Without the United States, the flag would have no power at all, but because it is representative of one of, if not the, greatest nations in recorded history, the flag does in fact have a certain amount of stature the world over. Your beliefs are, if I had to venture a guess, closer to **Nicodemus’** and mine than the OP, at least on this issue. Also, had you read all of the OP’s posts in this thread entirely, you would have gathered that he does not pledge to the flag, the government, or the country for that matter, so who’s beliefs do yours more closely mirror? \*\*Badura[b/] To you, all I would like to say is thank-you for your sacrifice and that of your family members. I for one appreciate everything our servicemen and women do to the utmost. I can only imagine how it must feel to have watched friends perish, and I’m sure that imagined scene does not even begin to tell the whole story. You sir, are a hero. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/67 "2005-05-08T15:52:29Z")
Funny word, allegiance. I checked Merriam-Webster. Primary meaning: > [@](#): > > the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord Is that weird? ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/68 "2005-05-09T02:44:30Z")
Holy Crap **Siege**! Where did that come from. I was not painting with any kind of brush or patronizing anyone. I have heard how difficult the test for citizenship can be and how much American history is required from the applicants. That is what I meant by many applicants knowing more Amer. History than some natives. I got the impression, seemingly wrong, that the citizenship was a rather new accomplishment, not the being-a-part-of-this-country thing. Honestly, I am baffled by your responce and apparent anger. Anything I said to you was sincerly a friendly response. I agree with **brassballs** opinion and I agree that, at least I feel, we are on the same page here. I have said, like you, that it isn’t about the piece of cloth, it is only a symbol. Again, anything said to you was meant to be supportive and friendly. If it came across in any other way, I am sincerly sorry. And **brassballs** , thanks for the support in my absence. You were right on all counts. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/69 "2005-05-09T11:24:11Z")
No problem Nicodemus2004. I just figured you didn’t mean any harm either, so cast your lot in with mine. You didn’t seem like the smarmy, talk out of the side of your mouth kind of person, you were being portrayed as. Not to say this thread isn’t full of em’. On a side note: I wish this thread would have stayed on topic, I was really looking forward to debating this with the OP. Of course, it is terribly hard to debate when ones questions go unanswered. Oh well, maybe I will see you around in another thread Nicodemus, we “crazies” have to stick together. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/70 "2005-05-09T13:37:09Z")
> [@Badura](#): > > I’ve spent my entire adult life, 24 years to date, in defense of that country called America. Seventeen of those 24 years have been spent outside the United States in some very inhospitable places (and some nice ones). I’ve been shot at, I’ve been spit on, and I’ve watched friends die. I’m not going to demean the sacrifices those young men and women made by claiming here that they died so that people like MSWAS can enjoy the freedom to come on boards like this and declare their disdain for America (and the piece of cloth that represents it). You’ve chosen an occupation as soldier. If that’s what you want for yourself, fine. It doesn’t give you any special insight into whether saying the pledge in school is a good idea. > [@](#): > > In short, they would have considered the fact that not everyone in America is deserving of their service nor of their potential sacrifices. But they knew that someone had to do it because America, in general, was worth it. And how do you determine who is "deserving of their service’? Just those that agree with you politically? > [@](#): > > And for those that feel “weird” that you would be asked to pledge allegiance to that Flag in the comfort of some school or baseball stadium, take a moment to think about what it means to those who are out risking their lives for America…for you. And if after that, you still feel weird. Well, then to hell with you. You aren’t the ones we’re dying for anyway. Nobody is risking their lives for me. They’re dying for a mistake. Whether Iraq has a democratic government or despotism isn’t going to make me any more safe or unsafe. So you only are risking your lives for people that you agree with? If so, how is that fighting for freedom? ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/71 "2005-05-09T14:48:49Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You’ve chosen an occupation as soldier. Exactly. He chose it of his own free will, and for that he should be commended. Regardless of what you think or feel about the governmenr or country, he deserves your respect. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Nobody is risking their lives for me. They’re dying for a mistake. Whether Iraq has a democratic government or despotism isn’t going to make me any more safe or unsafe. So you only are risking your lives for people that you agree with? If so, how is that fighting for freedom? Are you a citizen of the US, Bob? If so, then every serviceperson that has given their life in active or inactive duty has in fact done so for you, and for me, and everyone else in this country. It really makes no difference whether or not you agree or disagree with the premise under which we go to war. The fact is that we are there, and those young men and women that have lost their lives didn’t die in vain. On a side note BobLibBem, are you one of those that are against the war in Iraq, and pissing and moaning about the WMD issue, but claiming that North Korea is the real problem? I’m just curious. Before you assume that I am a neocon an pro war in Iraq, I am neither. I am the grandson of a decorated veteran and it makes me see red when people don’t show the military the respect they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/72 "2005-05-09T14:57:16Z")
> [@brassballs](#): > > The fact is that we are there, and those young men and women that have lost their lives didn’t die in vain. . . .it makes me see red when people don’t show the military the respect they deserve. I don’t see how believing that soldiers’ deaths in Iraq are in vain shows disrespect for them. ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/73 "2005-05-09T15:11:15Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > I don’t see how believing that soldiers’ deaths in Iraq are in vain shows disrespect for them. A large majority of soldiers belive in what they are doing over in Iraq. If they belive that what they are doing is noble, then their deaths are not in vain. And IMO if you call their deaths in vain whilst they believe it to be for a reason, it is disrespctful of their memory. Now that this thread has been hi-jacked to shyte and back, lets get it back on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/74 "2005-05-09T15:19:15Z")
> [@brassballs](#): > > If they belive that what they are doing is noble, then their deaths are not in vain. Believing something doesn’t make it true. Your argument amounts to saying all war is justified if the soldiers believe it so. ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/75 "2005-05-09T15:28:13Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > Believing something doesn’t make it true. Your argument amounts to saying all war is justified if the soldiers believe it so. Do me a favor and don’t put words in my mouth. I never claimed all war was justified. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/76 "2005-05-09T15:45:06Z")
> [@brassballs](#): > > Do me a favor and don’t put words in my mouth. I never claimed all war was justified. No one accused you of saying such a thing. Would you agree that a death in an unjustified war is a death in vain? ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/77 "2005-05-09T16:12:00Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > No one accused you of saying such a thing. Would you agree that a death in an unjustified war is a death in vain? Could you please provide an example of an unjustified war. That is such a subjective concept. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/78 "2005-05-09T16:16:19Z")
> [@brassballs](#): > > Could you please provide an example of an unjustified war. That is such a subjective concept. Do you think Germany was justified in invading Poland? ---
**Author:** ![brassballs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@brassballs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brassballs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/79 "2005-05-09T16:27:06Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > Do you think Germany was justified in invading Poland? Germany invading Poland is a different situation IMO. Anything done by Adolf Hitler was basically unjustified, but he was using forced sevicemen for the most part. And those that weren’t forced had been indoctrinated since youth to be loyal to the Hitler. Do you not think that these men, no matter how dispicable their actions, believed that they were acting appropriately? ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507/80 "2005-05-09T16:47:41Z")
> [@brassballs](#): > > And those that weren’t forced had been indoctrinated since youth to be loyal to the Hitler. Do you not think that these men, no matter how dispicable their actions, believed that they were acting appropriately? I’m quite sure that many German soldiers believed they were acting appropriately; nobly, even. Some, I’m sure, fell upon grenades to save their comrades-in-arms. > [@brassballs](#): > > If they belive that what they are doing is noble, then their deaths are not in vain. Were their deaths in vain? Please do not accuse me of equating Germany’s invasion of Poland with the US invasion of Iraq. I’m only pointing out that the fact that our sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, are bravely fighting this war does not, in itself, justify it. This discussion is not a hijack, as you suggest. The pledge of allegiance is a promise to shut up and do what you’re told. And that’s not always the right thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-pledging-allegiance-to-a-piece-of-cloth-strange/302507.md?page=5)