# Isn't The Federal Reserve Bank Simply A Criminal Enterprise? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672 "2010-08-18T21:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/1 "2010-08-18T21:42:49Z")
This debate is a discussion of the implications of this article. [Federal Reserve - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System) . and this (as it happens, Libertarian) missive [http://mises.org/daily/3525](http://mises.org/daily/3525) > [@](#): > > The Federal Reserve is lying about the nation’s money supply (M1). The current figure for money supply is being given as $1.6 trillion. The actual number is $2.34 trillion. The reported number is equivalent to an increase of 16% over the past year. The actual number is equivalent to an increase of 70% over the past year. This compares with the nation’s high money-supply increase of 16.9% in 1986. You may, with cites, contest the factuality of any portion of the above but, otherwise, we will attempt to dispel (I prefer the word ‘dispelling’ to ‘fighting’, Cecil) ignorance about why and how the world we live in is what it is thru RATIONAL discussion of what the Fed _really_ is. Let me start with a few cites (wiki). > [@](#): > > The original Aldrich Plan was dealt a fatal blow in 1912, when Democrats won the White House and Congress.[22] Nonetheless, President Woodrow Wilson believed that the Aldrich plan would suffice with a few modifications. The plan became the basis for the Federal Reserve Act, which was proposed by Senator Robert Owen in May 1913. The primary difference between the two bills was the transfer of control of the Board of Directors (called the Federal Open Market Committee in the Federal Reserve Act) to the government.[1][18] The bill passed Congress in late 1913[24][25] on a mostly partisan basis, with most Democrats voting “yea” and most Republicans voting “nay”. BTW, Aldrich was Republican. > [@](#): > > In the face of increasing financial strain, however, the Bretton Woods system collapsed in 1971, after U.S. President Richard Nixon unilaterally terminated convertibility of the dollars to gold. This action caused considerable financial stress in the world economy and created the unique situation whereby the United States dollar became the “reserve currency” in the states that had signed the agreement. Nixon unilaterally formalizes the Fed as Banker To The World. My analysis. The Fed is the creation of taxpayer funded bi-partisan cooperation. And the result? The Fed is organized corruption. Ask me to reconcile my thoughts with your thinking. Remember, I’m going for the GD No Responses Title. Convince me I’m honest by recusing yourself. OK. I’m an attention whore. Lay it on. If you agree in general, make it short. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/2 "2010-08-18T21:52:37Z")
I’m confused as to what the crime is supposed to have been. Misreporting of information? The list if criminal enterprises is going to be long. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/3 "2010-08-18T22:05:24Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m confused as to what the crime is supposed to have been. Misreporting of information? The list if criminal enterprises is going to be long. Precisely. It’s list of member banks is exponential, ultimately into wallets and change purses. Quite so. ETA the crime is editing (cooking) the books. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/4 "2010-08-18T22:06:21Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > I’m confused as to what the crime is supposed to have been. Misreporting of information? The list if criminal enterprises is going to be long. > > Precisely. It’s list of member banks is exponential, ultimately into wallets and change purses. Quite so. I was thinking to start the list with churches, but whichever… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/5 "2010-08-18T22:09:59Z")
This is one of those Creature from Jekyll Island type things, right? I’m honestly unsure of what the OP is even getting at, here, though considering the OP that is, perhaps, not so unusual. Is the ‘debate’ about the Fed misrepresenting the M1 figures, and if so, how does that make or not make the Federal Reserve bank ‘simply a criminal enterprise’?? Or is the debate that the Fed is or isn’t a criminal enterprise, and what does that even mean wrt a government agency? Or, is the debate that Republicans are evil since they lead a Democratic Congress into creating the original Federal Reserve Banking system? Or is this just another rant about the evils of government, blah blah blah? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/6 "2010-08-18T22:16:01Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > OK. I’m an attention whore. Lay it on. If you agree in general, make it short. The need for a Federal Reserve has escaped me on some fundamental level. It seems absurd to give the People’s money from the U.S Treasury to the Fed who then loans that money to the banks who in turn loans money back to the People. The whole exercise smells of a ponzi scheme specifically designed to generate wealth from interest. It is also unclear why the Fed will not let the People open an account with them. I’m a citizen, I have a social security number, I have reasonable credit, I want an 0 - 0.25% interest rate on a loan, too. I don’t ask this in a populist rage but reallty: What makes JPMorgan Chase so special? My biggest problem with the Fed is that they have no power to force banks to lend. All they do is turn down the interest rate meter (which is at the lowest it can go). I want a public option; There needs to be a real “lender of last resort” that will loan money to responsible businesses and individuals when private banks can’t, or in this case, won’t do so. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/7 "2010-08-18T22:20:03Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > Precisely. It’s list of member banks is exponential, ultimately into wallets and change purses. Quite so. > > I was thinking to start the list with churches, but whichever… > [@xtisme](#): > > This is one of those Creature from Jekyll Island type things, right? > > I’m honestly unsure of what the OP is even getting at, here, though considering the OP that is, perhaps, not so unusual. Is the ‘debate’ about the Fed misrepresenting the M1 figures, and if so, how does that make or not make the Federal Reserve bank ‘simply a criminal enterprise’?? Or is the debate that the Fed is or isn’t a criminal enterprise, and what does that even mean wrt a government agency? Or, is the debate that Republicans are evil since they lead a Democratic Congress into creating the original Federal Reserve Banking system? > > Or is this just another rant about the evils of government, blah blah blah? > > -XT Abbot and Costello (Hyde and Hyde), ignoring the definition of this particular OP. Funny? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/8 "2010-08-18T22:21:40Z")
Possibly relevant article from [The Master](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/719/how-much-money-is-there) on the Federal Reserve: > [@](#): > > The government doesn’t create money, private banks do. Banks create money by making loans. Suppose I put $100 in my checking account. The bank bets I won’t draw it out for a while and lends $85 of my $100 to legendary cartoonist Slug Signorino. Slug blows the $85 on Captain Morgan and lottery tickets at McGinty’s. Now McGinty’s has $85 in folding green and I’ve got $100 in checking that theoretically I can draw out at any time. Behold, the local money supply has bloomed from $100 to $185. > > It doesn’t stop there. If McGinty’s puts the $85 in its checking account, its bank will lend out most of it, increasing the money supply even more. That’s how the banks find the cash to lend to Uncle Sam. They lend it out, the government spends it, the recipients put the money in the bank, and the banks lend out that. The total amount of money that banks can create is regulated by the Federal Reserve. Too much money (not too much currency) = inflation. > [@](#): > > The whole financial system is a house of cards. Probably during that last example you were thinking, jeez, what if Uncle Cecil drew out his $100, as he was legally entitled to do? It wouldn’t be there! Righto. If everybody decided to take what they had coming out of their accounts and bury it in the garden, the financial system would collapse, civilization would end, and we’d all go back to being hunter-gatherers. The modern world is made possible by the trust and sheeplike predictability of millions of depositors. (Deposit insurance makes it less of a crapshoot than it once was.) > [@](#): > > The government will never pay back the money it owes and nobody expects it to. The government borrows money by selling bonds. Each bond is a portable money machine, generating interest for its owner on a dependable schedule. Nobody wants these bonds to go away. In fact, in a time of worldwide financial instability, they are in great demand. To pay off old bonds the government simply issues new ones. The main concern is that the government not issue so many bonds that the interest payments get out of hand. As for the claims in the OP from the Ludwig Von Mises Institute, I haven’t been able to find anything more, um, mainstream to corroborate them yet. I’m still looking as I have no idea if they are true or not. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply) is a Wiki article on the money supply and how it works, as more background, if anyone is interested. -XT ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/9 "2010-08-18T22:23:06Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > OK. I’m an attention whore. Lay it on. If you agree in general, make it short. > > - Honesty Concise and on spot. ---
**Author:** ![GHO57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df788c/32.png) [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/10 "2010-08-18T22:28:19Z")
What is it you’re trying to say? …hell what are you even “analyzing”? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/11 "2010-08-18T22:33:59Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > What is it you’re trying to say? …hell what are you even “analyzing”? While you’re at it, analyze **Uzi** ’s post above. You guys speak the same language. Take it anywhere but here. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/12 "2010-08-18T22:36:47Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Abbot and Costello (Hyde and Hyde), ignoring the definition of this particular OP. Funny? Ignoring? I _asked_ for what your definition of “criminal” was, and your answer was less than helpful, by which I mean it was completely meaningless and incomprehensible. Unless you _actually_ meant that there mere ownership of a wallet or change purse was sufficient to render an individual a criminal. Did you? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/13 "2010-08-18T22:37:04Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@GHO57](#): > > > > What is it you’re trying to say? …hell what are you even “analyzing”? > > While you’re at it, analyze **Uzi** ’s post above. You guys speak the same language. Um, **Uzi** hasn’t posted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/14 "2010-08-18T22:39:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > While you’re at it, analyze **Uzi** ’s post above. You guys speak the same language. > > Um, **Uzi** hasn’t posted in this thread. Oh my. Well, this does put the ‘relative clarity’ of his posts in context, doesn’t it. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/15 "2010-08-18T22:41:42Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > This debate is a discussion of the implications of this article. [Federal Reserve - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System) . and this (as it happens, Libertarian) missive [http://mises.org/daily/3525](http://mises.org/daily/3525) > > > [@](#): > > > > The Federal Reserve is lying about the nation’s money supply (M1). The current figure for money supply is being given as $1.6 trillion. The actual number is $2.34 trillion. The reported number is equivalent to an increase of 16% over the past year. The actual number is equivalent to an increase of 70% over the past year. This compares with the nation’s high money-supply increase of 16.9% in 1986. > > You may, with cites, contest the factuality of any portion of the above I’m not quite sure what there is to dispute here. You posted a quote taken from a posting by Howard Katz on [mises.org](http://mises.org). If you look at the original posting, you’ll see that Katz provides absolutely no sources for any of his facts, figures, graphs, etc… It is not our responsibility to contest what Katz is saying. It is his responsibility to give us a reason to believe what he says. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/16 "2010-08-18T22:46:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > While you’re at it, analyze **Uzi** ’s post above. You guys speak the same language. > > Um, **Uzi** hasn’t posted in this thread. True. They are easy to confuse, imo. **begbert** is lost in their crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/17 "2010-08-18T22:48:11Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Um, **Uzi** hasn’t posted in this thread. > > True. They are easy to confuse, imo. **begbert** is lost in their crowd. I’ve never noticed any particular similarity between them. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/18 "2010-08-18T22:48:26Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Um, **Uzi** hasn’t posted in this thread. > > True. They are easy to confuse, imo. **begbert** is lost in their crowd. You are not familiar enough with me to get to leave off the “2”. ETA: everyone else on the message board is. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/19 "2010-08-18T22:49:54Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > This debate is a discussion of the implications of this article. [Federal Reserve - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System) . and this (as it happens, Libertarian) missive [http://mises.org/daily/3525](http://mises.org/daily/3525) > > > > You may, with cites, contest the factuality of any portion of the above > > I’m not quite sure what there is to dispute here. You posted a quote taken from a posting by Howard Katz on [mises.org](http://mises.org). If you look at the original posting, you’ll see that Katz provides absolutely no sources for any of his facts, figures, graphs, etc… It is not our responsibility to contest what Katz is saying. It is his responsibility to give us a reason to believe what he says. I’m the OP. I want contrary cites or leave the room, please. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/20 "2010-08-18T22:52:09Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > > I’m not quite sure what there is to dispute here. You posted a quote taken from a posting by Howard Katz on [mises.org](http://mises.org). If you look at the original posting, you’ll see that Katz provides absolutely no sources for any of his facts, figures, graphs, etc… It is not our responsibility to contest what Katz is saying. It is his responsibility to give us a reason to believe what he says. > > I’m the OP. I want contrary cites or leave the room, please. Being the OP doesn’t shift the burden of proof, you know. (Or maybe you don’t.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672.md?page=2)