# Isn't The Federal Reserve Bank Simply A Criminal Enterprise? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672 "2010-08-18T21:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/21 "2010-08-18T22:58:21Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > > I’m not quite sure what there is to dispute here. You posted a quote taken from a posting by Howard Katz on [mises.org](http://mises.org). If you look at the original posting, you’ll see that Katz provides absolutely no sources for any of his facts, figures, graphs, etc… It is not our responsibility to contest what Katz is saying. It is his responsibility to give us a reason to believe what he says. > > I’m the OP. I want contrary cites or leave the room, please. I’m the Mod. I want a coherent OP or leave the forum. You have been asked to explain your rather odd OP in regard to your use of the word “criminal” and in regard to why anyone should care what a pundit (Katz) happens to throw out as unsupported text. If you can provide coherent responses to those requests, your thread may remain open. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/22 "2010-08-18T22:59:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > True. They are easy to confuse, imo. **begbert** is lost in their crowd. > > You are not familiar enough with me to get to leave off the “2”. XX ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/23 "2010-08-18T23:15:09Z")
I accept the cites in the OP as fact. You disagree? Cite it. **tomndebb** , you could always close this thread and then we’ll take your reasoning to ATMB. BTW, I love your post as poster poser > [@](#): > > I’m the Mod. Of course you are and … . ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/24 "2010-08-18T23:21:38Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > I accept the cites in the OP as fact. You disagree? Cite it. I disagree, and my post is my cite. This gives me exactly the same factual backing as the dude you quoted in the OP has, so you can’t refute me without first going out and finding some other cite of some kind, this time with actual substance. And poking the mod is really cool, man. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/25 "2010-08-18T23:46:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Um, **Uzi** hasn’t posted in this thread. > > Oh my. > > Well, this does put the ‘relative clarity’ of his posts in context, doesn’t it. :eek: One of the Unwritten Rules of the Board is, If you’re in Great Debates or the Pit and the sanest response is from **Der Trihs** , you know it’s a trainwreck on its way to happen. Good catch, **DT**! ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/26 "2010-08-18T23:55:53Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The Federal Reserve is lying about the nation’s money supply (M1). If the Fed is lying about the money supply this year, how do we know they weren’t lying about the money supply last year? Maybe it’s a 0% increase, or 265%, or infinity, and beyond. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/27 "2010-08-19T00:14:55Z")
I want the kind of deal the Fed has: Here, let me print you some currency, manufactured out of thin air, and you can pay me interest on the face value! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/28 "2010-08-19T01:03:36Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > I accept the cites in the OP as fact. So, you got nothin’. > [@adhay](#): > > **tomndebb** , you could always close this thread and then we’ll take your reasoning to ATMB. Is this a dare? I have already implied that I am going to close this thread if you are not forthcoming with an explanation of your use of “criminal” and if you do not provide some sort of evidence that either you or Katz have any clue what you are talking about. I do not need to monitor one more bitch-fest where nothing is defined and nothing is explained, but all the participants feel the need to throw insults around. If you want a debate, then provide the basis for it, otherwise, you can post all you want in ATMB, where I will simply point back to my posts in this thread as the explanation for my actions. And, you have no basis and no authority to dictate who will post to a thread or what they may post, so you are already skating on thin ice for that attitude. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/29 "2010-08-19T01:35:54Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > My analysis. > > The Fed is the creation of taxpayer funded bi-partisan cooperation. And the result? > > The Fed is organized corruption. > > Ask me to reconcile my thoughts with your thinking. Remember, I’m going for the GD No Responses Title. Convince me I’m honest by recusing yourself. > > OK. I’m an attention whore. Lay it on. If you agree in general, make it short. Ok, here is the definition of [criminal enterprise](http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/orgcrime/glossary.htm). Now, can you tell us what ’ elements of an enterprise that need to be proven in order to convict individuals or groups of individuals’ would qualify the Fed as a criminal enterprise? Also, ‘taxpayer funded bi-partisan cooperation’ is the government. I would agree that under the current system the government is ‘organized corruption’. What is your alternative? Do you want anarchy, fascism, communism, or just a different set of corrupt government agents? Please ‘reconcile your thoughts with my thinking’. Why on earth would I recuse myself? I don’t work for the government or any political organization, so what possible conflict of interest would I have? And if I did recuse myself for some reason, how on earth does that reflect on your honesty? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/30 "2010-08-19T02:08:58Z")
BTW, [here](http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/hist/h6hist1.htm) are the Federal Reserve M1 stats (monthly) for the past few decades. I’m not sure how to post the graph, to be honest, so you’ll just have to go look at it. Basically, however, you can see the trend in M1 and it seems like a pretty smooth progression to me (currently it’s $1.7185 trillion BTW…not $1.6 trillion which according to the chart it hasn’t been since 2009). Granted, I suppose the past few presidents, administrations and Congress could be in on the deception (considering the OP, almost certainly were, at least according to him), but the data trend seems consistent. Since this data wont be accepted by the OP I’m unsure how to ‘prove’ the un-cited data in the OP’s link, so… -XT ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/31 "2010-08-19T02:23:21Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > It is also unclear why the Fed will not let the People open an account with them. I’m a citizen, I have a social security number, I have reasonable credit, I want an 0 - 0.25% interest rate on a loan, too. I don’t ask this in a populist rage but reallty: What makes JPMorgan Chase so special? It may be because processing 200 million separate loan applications may take slightly longer than a few dozen banks, or it may be something to do with black helicopters. I can’t decide. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/32 "2010-08-19T02:33:34Z")
Where to start. . . By the time Nixon “unilaterally” took the U.S. off the gold standard in 1971 it was pretty much only honored in the breach. Other nations, particularly France, had developed the neat trick of swapping their currencies for U.S. gold, simultaneously reducing inflation in their own countries while stripping the U.S. of its own gold reserves. Britain, in fact, had figured this out in 1931, when they abandoned the gold standard. Where’s the financial stability in requiring the U.S. to back its currency in gold when other countries can drive the price up or down? [Russia, China and Australia all produce more gold than the U.S.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gold_production) Any of them (and other producers, as well)could flood the world market and destabilize any gold-based currency. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/33 "2010-08-19T02:41:04Z")
Well, we could always back our currency on the leaf system and then try and burn down all the trees… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/34 "2010-08-19T04:02:28Z")
Looks like someone stole the keys to the liquor cabinet again. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/35 "2010-08-19T10:39:15Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > I accept the cites in the OP as fact. You disagree? Cite it. > > I disagree, and my post is my cite. This gives me exactly the same factual backing as the dude you quoted in the OP has, so you can’t refute me without first going out and finding some other cite of some kind, this time with actual substance. You are certainly welcome to post your cites of sources you believe contradict my own. HOWEVER, it is also your job to explain how they conflict and how they should mitigate my judgement of the Fed. Please continue. > [@](#): > > And poking the mod is really cool, man. I “poked” a poster. BTW, I will address the question of “criminality” soon. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/36 "2010-08-19T11:12:05Z")
Can we at least agree, for starters, that the Fed is a bi-partisan creation? Let’s discuss the implications of this. ---
**Author:** ![MindWanderer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@MindWanderer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindWanderer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/37 "2010-08-19T11:35:48Z")
Isn’t the fact that the Federal Reserve is totally unaccountable to the American public, and totally immune from any kind of control pretty alarming in itself? I mean, the Fed could LITERALLY, come out on Monday August 19th, and say, “We are providing 20 quadrillion dollars to Goldman Sachs. Later losers.” And BAM we’d see ungodly inflation, and the economy would belong to Goldman. The Federal Reserve is like a MMO gamer who has found a hack to make money from thin air, except no one is watching or keeping track, and people actually approve of this crazy setup. There’s nothing stopping us from becoming Zimbabwe overnight. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/38 "2010-08-19T12:24:15Z")
> [@MindWanderer](#): > > … > The Federal Reserve is like a MMO gamer who has found a hack to make money from thin air, except no one is watching or keeping track, and people actually approve of this crazy setup. There’s nothing stopping us from becoming Zimbabwe overnight. The Fed is more like a game designed by Congress and played by corporations. The Fed has played a large part in turning the US Treasury into a corporate slush fund. BTW, that’s criminal, legal but criminal theft of public funds. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/39 "2010-08-19T13:59:01Z")
[QUOTE=adhay] Can we at least agree, for starters, that the Fed is a bi-partisan creation? Let’s discuss the implications of this. [/QUOTE] Since neither party actually controls it, I’m curious why you think it’s important that both parties were involved in creating it. After all, I’d say that just about everything that actually gets done in the US from it’s inception were done with bi-partisan support to one degree or another. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/40 "2010-08-19T14:02:04Z")
[QUOTE=MindWanderer] Isn’t the fact that the Federal Reserve is totally unaccountable to the American public, and totally immune from any kind of control pretty alarming in itself? [/QUOTE] No…I consider that a feature, not a bug. > [@](#): > > I mean, the Fed could LITERALLY, come out on Monday August 19th, and say, “We are providing 20 quadrillion dollars to Goldman Sachs. Later losers.” And BAM we’d see ungodly inflation, and the economy would belong to Goldman. Space alien monkeys COULD (quite literally) fly out of my ass tomorrow, as well. The probability of them doing so is only slightly greater than the Fed losing it’s mind and doing what you are suggesting above. But anything is possible… > [@](#): > > The Federal Reserve is like a MMO gamer who has found a hack to make money from thin air, except no one is watching or keeping track, and people actually approve of this crazy setup. There’s nothing stopping us from becoming Zimbabwe overnight. And yet it’s provided a level of stability to our financial system unheard of before it’s creation…and, like the Energizer Bunny, it’s Still Going… -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672.md?page=3)