# Isn't The Federal Reserve Bank Simply A Criminal Enterprise? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672 "2010-08-18T21:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/41 "2010-08-19T14:42:41Z")
> [@MindWanderer](#): > > Isn’t the fact that the Federal Reserve is totally unaccountable to the American public, and totally immune from any kind of control pretty alarming in itself? The Chairman of the Fed and the members of the Board can be fired for cause by the President. Seriously, if you are going to make such broad claims, at least learn a little bit about what you’re talking about. And I would like **adhay** to give some examples of other central banks that are better-run, and compare and contrast those banks with the Federal Reserve. But in reality, I’m not sure **adhay** really understands what a central bank _is_. If the quality of the OP is anything to judge by, I believe he thinks they meet in a building [like this](http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Republican_Party_Headquarters), eat caviar out of the bellybuttons of Asian prostitutes smuggled in to the country by the Illuminati, and line their pockets with T-bills in order to pay off the Trilateral Commission for their efforts to keep marijuana illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/42 "2010-08-19T15:02:30Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > BTW, I will address the question of “criminality” soon. It’s in the freakin’ title, so you _should_ have addressed it in the OP. What crimes have the FRB committed? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/43 "2010-08-19T15:05:33Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > OK. I’m an attention whore. Lay it on. If you agree in general, make it short. > > The need for a Federal Reserve has escaped me on some fundamental level. It is because previous experience made it very clear that the U.S. **needed** a national bank or some functional equivalent. Read [_The Money Men: Capitalism, Democracy, and the Hundred Years’ War Over the American Dollar,_](http://www.amazon.com/Money-Men-Capitalism-Democracy-Enterprise/dp/0393330508/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1282230252&sr=8-1) by H.W. Brands (very short and very entertaining). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/44 "2010-08-19T15:08:40Z")
From what I’ve seen, distrust of the Fed is a form of economic populism based on a general distrust of the financial sector based in turn on [producerism,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Producerism) the idea that people who make things you can hold in your hands are the only makers of “real” wealth and all others are parasitic on them. This kind of thinking is actually very old in America. British conservative Paul Johnson commented in his _A History of the American People:_ > [@](#): > > The Founders, particularly the Virginians, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, _et al.,_ equated property, as a moral force, with land. Their views were articulated by John Taylor (1753-1824), like them a Virginia landowner who served in the Senate and published in 1814 a monumental work of 700 pages, _An Inquiry in the Principles and Policy of the United States._ Taylor distinguished between ‘natural’ property. such as land, and ‘artificial property’ created by legal privilege, of which banking wealth was the outstanding example. He saw the right to issue paper money as indirect taxation on the people: ‘Taxation, direct or indirect, produced by a paper system in any form, will rob a nation of property without giving it liberty; and by creating and enriching a separate interest, will rob it of liberty without giving it property.’ Paper-money banking benefited an artificially created and parasitical financial aristocracy at the expense of the hard-working farmer, and this ‘property-transferring policy invariably impoverishes all laboring and productive classes.’ He compared this new financial power with the old feudal and ecclesiastical power, with the bankers using ‘force, faith and credit’ as the two others did religion and feudality. What particularly infuriated Taylor was the horrible slyness with which financiers had invested ‘fictitious’ property, such as bank-paper and stock, with all the prestige and virtues of ‘honest’ property. > > Taylor’s theory was an early version of what was to become known as the ‘physical fallacy,’ a belief that only those who worked with their hands and brains to raise food or make goods were creating ‘real’ wealth and that all other forms of economic activity were essentially parasitical. It was commonly held in the early 19th century, and Marx and all his followers fell victim to it. Indeed plenty of people hold it in one form or another today, and whenever its adherents acquire power, or seize it, and put their beliefs into practice, by oppressing the ‘parasitical middleman,’ poverty invariably follows. Taylor’s formulation of this theory fell on particularly rich soil because American farmers in general, and the Southerners and backwoodsmen in particular, already had a paranoid suspicion of the ‘money power’ dating from colonial times, as we have seen. So Taylor’s arguments, suitably vulgarized, became the common coin of the Jeffersonians, later of the Jacksonians and finally of silver-standard Democrats and populists of the late 19th century, who claimed that the American farmer was being ‘crucified on a cross of gold.’ The persistence of this fallacy in American politics refutes the common assumption that America is resistant to ideology, for if ever there were an ideology it is this farrago. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/45 "2010-08-19T15:09:07Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=MindWanderer] > Isn’t the fact that the Federal Reserve is totally unaccountable to the American public, and totally immune from any kind of control pretty alarming in itself? No…I consider that a feature, not a bug. Space alien monkeys COULD (quite literally) fly out of my ass tomorrow, as well. The probability of them doing so is only slightly greater than the Fed losing it’s mind and doing what you are suggesting above. But anything is possible… [/quote] Now cough. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The Federal Reserve is like a MMO gamer who has found a hack to make money from thin air, except no one is watching or keeping track, and people actually approve of this crazy setup. There’s nothing stopping us from becoming Zimbabwe overnight. > > And yet it’s provided a level of stability to our financial system unheard of before it’s creation…and, like the Energizer Bunny, it’s Still Going… > > -XT Oh yes, stable.😛 Like what we’re looking at today? Do you honestly believe that any system that conflates debt and wealth is viable in the long run? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/46 "2010-08-19T15:11:50Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Oh yes, stable.😛 Like what we’re looking at today? Do you honestly believe that any system that conflates debt and wealth is viable in the long run? Can you tell us what laws have been broken by the FRB? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/47 "2010-08-19T15:15:55Z")
[QUOTE=adhay] Oh yes, stable. Like what we’re looking at today? Do you honestly believe that any system that conflates debt and wealth is viable in the long run? [/QUOTE] Depends…how long is the ‘long run’? Considering how unstable our financial system was BEFORE the FRB was enacted, and considering how long it’s been in use and how stable things have been since, I’d have to say that, taking out your uninformed ‘conflates debt and wealth’ part, yes…I think it will be viable in the long run. Can you show me a system that doesn’t use centralized banking that has been stable for as long? Or can you propose a counter system that would work better than the Federal Reserve has worked for us to this point? Anything? Bueller? -XT ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/48 "2010-08-19T15:29:14Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > It is also unclear why the Fed will not let the People open an account with them. I’m a citizen, I have a social security number, I have reasonable credit, I want an 0 - 0.25% interest rate on a loan, too. I don’t ask this in a populist rage but reallty: What makes JPMorgan Chase so special? > > - Honesty JPMorgan Chase can meet the Fed’s [requirements](http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm). If are a bank and you could meet them, you could open an account with them, and receive the loans you’re looking for. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/49 "2010-08-19T15:47:00Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@xtisme](#): > > > > No…I consider that a feature, not a bug. > > > > Space alien monkeys COULD (quite literally) fly out of my ass tomorrow, as well. The probability of them doing so is only slightly greater than the Fed losing it’s mind and doing what you are suggesting above. > > > > But anything is possible… > > Now cough. > > > [@](#): > > > > And yet it’s provided a level of stability to our financial system unheard of before it’s creation…and, like the Energizer Bunny, it’s Still Going… > > > > -XT > > Oh yes, stable.😛 Like what we’re looking at today? Do you honestly believe that any system that conflates debt and wealth is viable in the long run? We had better hope so. Our whole economic system is based on equating debt to wealth. Without that, there can be no capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/50 "2010-08-19T17:12:13Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > You are certainly welcome to post your cites of sources you believe contradict my own. HOWEVER, it is also your job to explain how they conflict and how they should mitigate my judgement of the Fed. Please continue. Your “cite” is a worthless uncited opinion piece. You have nothing for me to _contradict_. When you _stop_ having nothing, then it might become my job to argue against whatever you manage to present. But until then, your judgement of the Fed is based on ephemeral fantasy. > [@](#): > > And poking the mod is really cool, man. BTW, I will address the question of “criminality” soon. [/QUOTE] When’s “soon”? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/51 "2010-08-19T17:35:04Z")
> [@MindWanderer](#): > > I mean, the Fed could LITERALLY, come out on Monday August 19th, and say, “We are providing 20 quadrillion dollars to Goldman Sachs. Later losers.” And BAM we’d see ungodly inflation, and the economy would belong to Goldman. > > The Federal Reserve is like a MMO gamer who has found a hack to make money from thin air, except no one is watching or keeping track, and people actually approve of this crazy setup. There’s nothing stopping us from becoming Zimbabwe overnight. Except that becoming Zimbabwe overnight would be very, very bad _for the very people who would be seeking to profit from being big players in this system_. Goldman Sachs _ **does not want** _ to find itself holding 20 quadrillion worthless hyperinflated dollars and “ownership” of an economy consistent of smoldering ruins, where a box of .223 ammunition in the hands of a member of the mob outside their door would be more valuable than any billion-dollar bond issue they could make. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/52 "2010-08-19T17:42:24Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > > [@MindWanderer](#): > > > > I mean, the Fed could LITERALLY, come out on Monday August 19th, and say, “We are providing 20 quadrillion dollars to Goldman Sachs. Later losers.” And BAM we’d see ungodly inflation, and the economy would belong to Goldman. > > > > The Federal Reserve is like a MMO gamer who has found a hack to make money from thin air, except no one is watching or keeping track, and people actually approve of this crazy setup. There’s nothing stopping us from becoming Zimbabwe overnight. > > Except that becoming Zimbabwe overnight would be very, very bad _for the very people who would be seeking to profit from being big players in this system_. Goldman Sachs _ **does not want** _ to find itself holding 20 quadrillion worthless hyperinflated dollars and “ownership” of an economy consistent of smoldering ruins, where a box of .223 ammunition in the hands of a member of the mob outside their door would be more valuable than any billion-dollar bond issue they could make. The general assumption in any conspiracy theory is that the Evil Geniuses that are manipulating things to their evil ends are 1) evil, and 2) evil. Nothing else. Regardless of how stupid the the actions attributed to them might be, as long as the actions are Evil, the theorist assumes the Evil Geniuses are poised to carry them out any moment now. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/53 "2010-08-19T18:31:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > You are certainly welcome to post your cites of sources you believe contradict my own. HOWEVER, it is also your job to explain how they conflict and how they should mitigate my judgement of the Fed. Please continue. > > Your “cite” is a worthless uncited opinion piece. You have nothing for me to _contradict_. Refute that the Fed greatly “underestimated” the money it’s put into circulation. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/54 "2010-08-19T18:36:05Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > Your “cite” is a worthless uncited opinion piece. You have nothing for me to _contradict_. > > Refute that the Fed greatly “underestimated” the money it’s put into circulation. Look up “Burden of Proof”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/55 "2010-08-19T18:36:19Z")
You have stated that the Federal Reserve Bank is a Criminal Enterprise. Since you refuse to tell us what laws have been broken by the Federal Reserve Bank, are you changing your statement to “The Federal Reserve Bank is an Enterprise.”? If so, what is there to debate? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/56 "2010-08-19T19:08:00Z")
Anyone else here wonder why **adhay** – who, if I remember, has described himself as some type of left-winger – keeps using that extreme libertarian/goldbug citation? Is his argument that if Ron Paul believes it, it must be true unless proven otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/57 "2010-08-19T19:18:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You have stated that the Federal Reserve Bank is a Criminal Enterprise. > Since you refuse to tell us what laws have been broken by the Federal Reserve Bank, are you changing your statement to “The Federal Reserve Bank is an Enterprise.”? > If so, what is there to debate? I think **adhay** is dodging or, rather, rejecting that question, judging by this post: > [@adhay](#): > > > [@MindWanderer](#): > > > > … > > The Federal Reserve is like a MMO gamer who has found a hack to make money from thin air, except no one is watching or keeping track, and people actually approve of this crazy setup. There’s nothing stopping us from becoming Zimbabwe overnight. > > The Fed is more like a game designed by Congress and played by corporations. The Fed has played a large part in turning the US Treasury into a corporate slush fund. BTW, that’s criminal, legal but criminal theft of public funds. Well, I don’t think any of us, including lawyers, would reject out of hand the idea that something can be “legal but criminal” – but it applies only as a moral or political, not as a legal assertion. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/58 "2010-08-19T19:32:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > … Well, I don’t think any of us, including lawyers, would reject out of hand the idea that something can be “legal but criminal” – but it applies only as a moral or political, not as a legal assertion. Thank you for clarifying the OP for these teeming millions. Well, at least to me. BTW, I’m not unaware that our FF supported property rights over all. The Constitution represents the legal enshrinement of the Original Thirteen Oligarchies, complete with slavery. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/59 "2010-08-19T19:35:13Z")
[QUOTE=adhay] Refute that the Fed greatly “underestimated” the money it’s put into circulation. [/QUOTE] How would someone do that? I gave a cite already showing their figures (which you ignored). So, how do you propose someone prove to you that those figures are real, since any cites they give would, you know, use the official figures that you discount without proof. Here’s a thought! Why don’t you prove that the official figures are wrong?? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672/60 "2010-08-19T19:35:23Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > … Well, I don’t think any of us, including lawyers, would reject out of hand the idea that something can be “legal but criminal” – but it applies only as a moral or political, not as a legal assertion. > > Thank you for clarifying the OP for these teeming millions. > > Well, at least to me. > > BTW, I’m not unaware that our FF supported property rights over all. > > The Constitution represents the legal enshrinement of the Original Thirteen Oligarchies, complete with slavery. For actual clarity, do you now contend that the Federal Reserve Bank did _not_ break any major laws that you know of? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-federal-reserve-bank-simply-a-criminal-enterprise/550672.md?page=4)