# Isn't the National Anthem ungrammatical? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 11, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389 "2018-01-11T13:31:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/1 "2018-01-11T13:31:49Z")
The following checks out. It’s grammatical. > [@](#): > > Can you see what we hailed by the gleaming, whose stripes and stars **we watched?** And the following also checks out. > [@](#): > > Can you see what we hailed by the gleaming, whose stripes and stars **were streaming?** But the following does not check out: > [@](#): > > Can you see what we hailed by the gleaming, whose stripes and stars **we watched were streaming**? [sic] What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Paintcharge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paintcharge/32/7946_2.png) [@Paintcharge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paintcharge)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/2 "2018-01-11T15:05:27Z")
So you’ve taken out all the extraneous words and reduced it to the important bits? I think the vital word is “still.” As in “Can you see that it is **still** streaming (despite all the crap that has been thrown at it).” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/3 "2018-01-11T15:53:54Z")
> [@Paintcharge](#): > > So you’ve taken out all the extraneous words and reduced it to the important bits? I think the vital word is “still.” As in “Can you see that it is **still** streaming (despite all the crap that has been thrown at it).” Not the most important parts, rather, the parts that are necessary to highlight the grammatical infelicity I’m talking about. The word “still” doesn’t appear in the part of the song I pruned this from so it can’t be a word vital to the grammar of the passage! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/4 "2018-01-11T15:55:57Z")
Oh, you don’t even need “by the gleaming”, nor really the “and” bit. Can you see what we hailed, whose stripes were streaming? Can you see what we hailed, whose stripes we watched? \*Can you see what we hailed, whose stripes we watched were streaming. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/5 "2018-01-11T15:56:04Z")
The object of “watched” is “ramparts.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/6 "2018-01-11T16:00:05Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > The object of “watched” is “ramparts.” They were watching the ramparts and the flag was over the ramparts? I guess… though I don’t know why you’d watch a rampart! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/7 "2018-01-11T16:02:00Z")
Can you see what we hailed, whose stripes were streaming over the ramparts we watched? I see… Never mind! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/8 "2018-01-11T16:10:48Z")
Here’s the original original, from the manuscript. > [@](#): > > O say can you see, by the dawn’s early light, > What so proudly we hail’d at the twilight’s last gleaming, > Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight > O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming? > And the rocket’s red glare, the bomb bursting in air, > Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there, > O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave > O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave? Frylock seems to be objecting to this line: > [@](#): > > Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight > O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming? It can be unpoetized. > [@](#): > > We watched, over the ramparts, [the flag] whose broad stripes and bright stars [kept] gallantly streaming through the perilous fight. That looks correct to me. Frylock, you can’t pick up bits and pieces from different lines and butt them together into the mishmash “Can you see what we hailed by the gleaming, whose stripes and stars we watched were streaming?” That’s not what the song says. It may be ungrammatical, but you’re the one who sucked all the grammar out of it. Blame yourself, not Key. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/9 "2018-01-11T16:23:43Z")
Seems perfectly grammatical to me. O say can you see, by the dawn’s early light, [the flag] whose broad stripes and bright stars were so gallantly streaming through the perilous flght (that we watched over the ramparts). ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/10 "2018-01-11T16:29:35Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/11 "2018-01-11T16:36:05Z")
I don’t think **Exapno’s** reading makes sense. When you add the clause whose verb is “see,” you can’t make “flag” the object of both “see” and “watched.” **pulykamell** could be right that the object of “watched” is “fight,” however. The phrasing of the song makes it hard to scan that way, but when you read it without the musical phrasing in mind, that makes slightly more sense than my reading. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/12 "2018-01-11T16:45:13Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Here’s the original original, from the manuscript. > Frylock seems to be objecting to this line: > > It can be unpoetized. > > That looks correct to me. > > Frylock, you can’t pick up bits and pieces from different lines and butt them together into the mishmash “Can you see what we hailed by the gleaming, whose stripes and stars we watched were streaming?” That’s not what the song says. It may be ungrammatical, but you’re the one who sucked all the grammar out of it. Blame yourself, not Key. I’m really confused by your comment here–you said I shouldn’t pick up bits and pieces etc but didn’t you just do so? It seems to me what you and I did was give two different grammatical readings–but the method is sound in both cases. Pruning out clauses to highlight (not discover) a grammatical structure. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/13 "2018-01-11T16:48:29Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I don’t think **Exapno’s** reading makes sense. When you add the clause whose verb is “see,” you can’t make “flag” the object of both “see” and “watched.” > > **pulykamell** could be right that the object of “watched” is “fight,” however. The phrasing of the song makes it hard to scan that way, but when you read it without the musical phrasing in mind, that makes slightly more sense than my reading. Basically it looks to me like there is a grammatical ambiguity, and I failed to find two possible resolutions that make it grammatical, instead mistaking it for an ungrammatical passage. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/14 "2018-01-11T17:27:27Z")
Rearranging the phrases makes it clear: [The flag] Whose broad stripes and bright stars were so gallantly streaming o’er the ramparts we watched, through the perilous fight. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/15 "2018-01-11T17:30:29Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Rearranging the phrases makes it clear: > > [The flag] Whose broad stripes and bright stars were so gallantly streaming o’er the ramparts we watched, through the perilous fight. Ah, that way seems to work, too. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/16 "2018-01-11T19:38:25Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I don’t think **Exapno’s** reading makes sense. When you add the clause whose verb is “see,” you can’t make “flag” the object of both “see” and “watched.” > > **pulykamell** could be right that the object of “watched” is “fight,” however. The phrasing of the song makes it hard to scan that way, but when you read it without the musical phrasing in mind, that makes slightly more sense than my reading. Again, go back to the original lines. > [@](#): > > Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight > O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming? What did they watch? The flag, described by its broad stripes and bright stars which were streaming. At first you’d think they saw the flag _despite_ the fight, which an observer would normally expect to interfere, but the light from the fight actually _illuminates_ the flag, a nice poetic twist. Yes, they saw the flag and watched the flag wave. See below. > [@Frylock](#): > > I’m really confused by your comment here–you said I shouldn’t pick up bits and pieces etc but didn’t you just do so? > > It seems to me what you and I did was give two different grammatical readings–but the method is sound in both cases. Pruning out clauses to highlight (not discover) a grammatical structure. The clauses must be part of the same grammatical structure, though. Look at the whole stanza line by line checking what the verbs reflect. > [@](#): > > O say can you see, by the dawn’s early light, What do they see? The flag. > [@](#): > > What so proudly we hail’d at the twilight’s last gleaming, What did they hail? The flag. > [@](#): > > Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight Yep, that’s the flag, but there’s no verb, so the next line must be added. > [@](#): > > Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight > O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming? What did they watch? The flag. Where? As it flew over the ramparts. > [@](#): > > And the rocket’s red glare, the bomb bursting in air, Again, no verb action for the watcher, so attach the next line. > [@](#): > > And the rocket’s red glare, the bomb bursting in air, > Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there, What did the bursts give proof to? The flag. > [@](#): > > O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave What waves? The flag. > [@](#): > > O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave? Just a prepositional cause to be attached to the previous line, so: > [@](#): > > O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave > O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave? What waves? The flag. Where? Not merely physicallyover the ramparts but metaphorically over the whole country. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/17 "2018-01-11T19:52:08Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The clauses must be part of the same grammatical structure, though. Yes, that is so. Again, since it’s a technique for _highlighting_ grammatical features, if one has misread the grammar, this might come out in the “highlighted” version. That’s what happened in my case–and I still think, in yours as well. Meanwhile the other two readings offered in the thread look like they don’t make the mistake you and I have made. This is easily seen (not discovered) using the same highlighting technique of pruning away dependent and relative clauses. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/18 "2018-01-11T19:54:26Z")
> [@](#): > > The clauses must be part of the same grammatical structure, though. Look at the whole stanza line by line checking what the verbs reflect. > What do they see? The flag. Part of the problem here is you’re mixing up grammar and semantics. What they saw is, grammitically speaking, “what… we hailed…”, not the flag. That “the flag” is the antecedent to “what… we hailed…” is not _grammatically_ relevant. (Antecedence is a semantic concept, not a grammatical one. This is exactly the kind of phenomenon that makes grammatical ambiguity possible.) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/19 "2018-01-11T20:01:07Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight > > O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming? > > What did they watch? The flag. Where? As it flew over the ramparts. The problem is that _grammatically_, “we watch’d” can’t have “what we hailed” as its subject. It doesn’t work, even in poetically “free” word order. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389/20 "2018-01-11T20:19:25Z")
By the dawn’s early light, can you see what we hailed so proudly by the twilight’s last gleaming–whose broad stripes and bright stars were so gallantly streaming through the perilous fight that we watched over the ramparts? By the dawn’s early light, can you see what we hailed so proudly by the twilight’s last gleaming–whose broad stripes and bright stars were so gallantly streaming over the ramparts that we watched through the perilous fight? ^those are the two viable readings of the line that I see in the thread. I think on reading and re-reading it’s technically open to either interpretation. But definitely not ungrammatical, as a grammatical reading (two of em!) can be given. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-the-national-anthem-ungrammatical/806389.md?page=2)