# Isn't this a perpetual motion machine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 16, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-this-a-perpetual-motion-machine/331256 "2005-11-16T03:39:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-this-a-perpetual-motion-machine/331256/41 "2005-11-20T14:25:32Z")
Well I found one place selling a water/meth injector which claims such an imporvment in diesels: [http://www.snowperformance.net/](http://www.snowperformance.net/) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-this-a-perpetual-motion-machine/331256/42 "2005-11-20T15:07:50Z")
> [@](#): > > and yet have found a diagram on it. Whoops, **Not** yet have found a diagram on it. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-this-a-perpetual-motion-machine/331256/43 "2005-11-20T20:39:22Z")
So I’m wrong. :smack: I asked the man who owns one and is satisfied that they work and save fuel. The ones he is using on over the road service consume about 1/2 gal. H20 in 90 hours of running time so the amount of hydrogen is rather small. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-this-a-perpetual-motion-machine/331256/44 "2005-11-21T05:58:15Z")
> [@Enola Straight](#): > > Argh…ya beat me to it. > > A heavy fuel like diesel injected and combustedheterogeneously in a cylinder can never achieve true stoichiometric combustion efficiency: there will always be smoke and soot production beyond a certain level of throttle. > > A light, clean fuel like propane injected into the intake can take advantage of the unused oxygen otherwise left over from heavy diesel throttle applications. > > (btw, propane fumigation is an on/off affair, triggered by at- or near-full-throttle power levels) > > A lighter, cleaner fuel like hydrogen would do even better. I just realized something about propane fumigation and, if similar, hydrogen injection: Since injection/fumigation only occurs during at or near full throttle totake advantage of the unused oxygen during combustion, thus approaching true or at least nearly true stoichiometric combustion, this probably wouldn’t work AT ALL at part throttle. I mean, a driver dosen’t keep the pedal to the metal at a sustained cruise, does he? ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-this-a-perpetual-motion-machine/331256/45 "2005-11-21T16:02:28Z")
[**Manufacturer’s Brochure**](http://www.feric.ca/en/ed/WS2005ON-Steve-Gilchrist.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-this-a-perpetual-motion-machine/331256/46 "2005-11-21T18:37:14Z")
**spingears** , thanks - that’s a solid link. We’ve had a link to that brochure already in this thread (and a debate about its content) which came to a head-scratching stalemate. Also, I posted the names of several engineering and trade journal articles well above your post asking for “scientific journal references”. I was happy to hear that you know an owner of such a device. Does he have any paper documentation that came with it that you could scan in? I’m already pretty well convinced that it works, but my reasoning is an economic one. Trucking companies are motivated by profit, and are unlikely to gamble. I can’t imagine a fleet outfitting their trucks with these devices unless they had participated in a road-test or seen credible results from a road test. I also can’t imagine a fleet’s owner getting bilked by a fraudulent black box and not fighting back in the courts. I make the distinction between the companies and the individuals because individuals _do_ gamble all the time, and they get defrauded, and fail to fight back on a depressingly regular basis. I’m still waiting for **Una Persson** or some other sharp MechE mind to help me understand how the chemistry/thermodynamics works, though. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-this-a-perpetual-motion-machine/331256/47 "2005-11-21T21:00:08Z")
Ok now I think I understand the working theory thanks to \*\*spingear’\*\*s link, though it can’t be (easially) cut and paste. Basically Hydrogen burns much faster then hydrocarbon fuel, when the fuel ignites the Hydrogen quickly spreads the combustion throughout the cylinder. (which I got from page 6) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isnt-this-a-perpetual-motion-machine/331256.md?page=2)