# Israel 60 years: A very improper celebration indeed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 8, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622 "2008-05-08T23:04:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/181 "2008-05-13T09:12:07Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] … from a supporter. 😃 [/QUOTE] Is it too much to ask why? **Airman doors** won’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/182 "2008-05-13T09:30:33Z")
There’s already at least one whole thread on the matter. Feel free to do a Search. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/183 "2008-05-13T09:42:02Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] The lack of objective comparison is the problem highlighted first up. [/quote] You see no basis for objective comparison on such factors as literacy, voting rights and civil rights? This strikes me as a disingenuous effort to avoid admitting that Israel can do some things right. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/184 "2008-05-13T11:13:37Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Is it too much to ask why? [/QUOTE] We’re just likable, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/185 "2008-05-13T13:42:48Z")
NVM. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/186 "2008-05-13T13:42:51Z")
> [@Sevastopol's quote](#): > > At no time since the negotiations began in the early 1990s has Israel significantly suspended the settlement process in the occupied Palestinian territories, in stark violation of international law. Didn’t Isreal pull settlers out of the Gaza strip in 2005? I seem to remember seeing video on the American news networks of Isreali families being forcibly removed by the Isreali army. (Including the use of water hoses.) ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/187 "2008-05-13T13:54:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Is it too much to ask why? **Airman doors** won’t say. [/QUOTE] I’m not **sam** , but I’ll take a shot. I support Israel, as they are a democratic state, with a free market economy. I support Israel because they have earned, through blood, my respect as a military power that is more than equal to the task of defending themselves from the aggressions of their neighbors. I support Israel because while it would be easy to solve their Palestinian problems by forcing them all out or killing them (as their neighbors would do), they don’t. I support Israel because they haven’t given into extremists (and likely won’t) who would create a theocratic state, which is by definition anathema to democratic rule. It would be simple to remove the mosques and other holy sites, and then deal with the brief uproar. They don’t do this, as they respect the history they are stewards of, which earns my respect. This is why I support Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/188 "2008-05-13T14:02:54Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] I’m not **sam** , but I’ll take a shot. I support Israel, as they are a democratic state, with a free market economy. I support Israel because they have earned, through blood, my respect as a military power that is more than equal to the task of defending themselves from the aggressions of their neighbors. I support Israel because while it would be easy to solve their Palestinian problems by forcing them all out or killing them (as their neighbors would do), they don’t. I support Israel because they haven’t given into extremists (and likely won’t) who would create a theocratic state, which is by definition anathema to democratic rule. It would be simple to remove the mosques and other holy sites, and then deal with the brief uproar. They don’t do this, as they respect the history they are stewards of, which earns my respect. This is why I support Israel. [/QUOTE] All very good reasons. At least nobody in this thread has tried to defend the preposterous notion that the Jews have a historical claim on the land that trumps the Arabs’. It doesn’t matter, anyway. Israel’s **modern** claim to the land (at least, west of the Green Line), having been established through a combination of possession, conquest, cessions, treaties and negotiations, is as sound as any other modern state’s claim to its territory. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/189 "2008-05-13T14:41:53Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] I couldn’t find where your figures came from, particularly as I looked for Lebanon, Dubai and Turkey. [/QUOTE] All files in PDF… Lebanon- [http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/Lebanon2006.pdf](http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/Lebanon2006.pdf) Turkey- [http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/Turkey2006.pdf](http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/Turkey2006.pdf) Dubai is one of the United Arab Emirates- [http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/UnitedArabEmirates2006.pdf](http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/UnitedArabEmirates2006.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/190 "2008-05-13T16:46:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] At least nobody in this thread has tried to defend the preposterous notion that the Jews have a historical claim on the land that trumps the Arabs’. [/QUOTE] As in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=460590) thread, f’rinstance. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/191 "2008-05-13T20:08:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] This looked interesting and far-ranging: Morocco to Pakistan! I couldn’t find where your figures came from, particularly as I looked for Lebanon, Dubai and Turkey. [/QUOTE] Sevastopol, thanks for the question. The figures are from the Polity database cited above. The POLITY4 database has no entry for Dubai. They also don’t have recent figures for Lebanon, the latest being Lebanon 0 (1989) Turkey rates as +7 in 2004. w. UPON EDIT - shakes his fist at Captain Amazing, who was there firstest with the mostest … ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/192 "2008-05-13T22:59:25Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] Didn’t Isreal pull settlers out of the Gaza strip in 2005? I seem to remember seeing video on the American news networks of Isreali families being forcibly removed by the Isreali army. (Including the use of water hoses.) [/QUOTE] But are you aware of that the number of **jewish settlers** on the West-bank have increased with over **150%** since the Oslo Accords 1993 to 2006. In the 90’s, the annual settler population growth was \*\*more than three times \*\* the annual population growth in Israel. In the 00’s, the large settler population growth continues. > **[Israeli settlement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlements#Population)** > > Israeli settlements, also called Israeli colonies, are the civilian communities built by Israel throughout the Israeli-occupied territories. They are populated by Israeli citizens, almost exclusively of Jewish identity or ethnicity, and have been constructed on lands that Israel has militarily occupied since the Six-Day War in 1967. The international community considers Israeli settlements to be illegal under international law, but Israel disputes this.\[ As of April 2025, Israeli settlements e... ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/193 "2008-05-14T02:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=Wildfire\*\*MM] But are you aware of that the number of **jewish settlers** on the West-bank have increased with over **150%** since the Oslo Accords 1993 to 2006. In the 90’s, the annual settler population growth was \*\*more than three times \*\* the annual population growth in Israel. In the 00’s, the large settler population growth continues. [/QUOTE] God forbid anyone should move. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/194 "2008-05-14T02:05:10Z")
If the Palestinians wanted a two state solution, they should have taken it when it was offered in 1948. Instead they turned it down, many of them left so that the Arab armies would have free reign to slaughter the Jews. Unfortunately the Jews were harder to slaughter than they thought and, well, it sucks to be them. Those that stayed got citizenship with full rights (and an exemption from mandatory military service) including representation in Knesset. Too bad, so sad, cry me a river, they shouldn’t have left in the first place. If you abandon something, your descendants don’t get to claim it back from the people who took it over and made something of it. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/195 "2008-05-14T03:49:38Z")
Weirddave, do you have a citation for the number who left voluntarily, vs. those who were driven out? w. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/196 "2008-05-14T04:17:28Z")
[QUOTE=intention] Weirddave, do you have a citation for the number who left voluntarily, vs. those who were driven out? w. [/QUOTE] Does it really matter? I mean, countries have always been built on the bloodshed of another, and Israel has as much if not more of a legitimate reason to exist than any other nation. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/197 "2008-05-14T05:20:14Z")
[QUOTE=intention] Weirddave, do you have a citation for the number who left voluntarily, vs. those who were driven out? [/QUOTE] There are, to be frank, no solid numbers. Some left because they were driven out, although the figures are political and politicized, and the cause, nature and scope of fighting at any villages will be difficult, at best, to determine accurately. Some left because they had legitimate fears of war. Some left because the Arab governments told them to in order to facilitat the ethnic cleansing of the region. Even the overall number of refugees of the '48 war is, itself, in dispute. When I say that there are no solid numbers, I’m not bullshitting you. [ > [@](#): > > The war that ensued was won by Israel, creating a large number of Arab refugees. Estimates vary from about 520,000 (Israeli sources) to 726,000 (UN sources) to over 800,000 (Arab sources) refugees, Palestinian Arabs who fled or were forced out of their homes during the fighting. > […] > Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews tell two very different stories about the events of 1948. The Israeli version is that the Palestinians attacked the Jews and then fled voluntarily because they believed Arab armies would soon liberate Palestine. The Palestinian version is that they were innocently minding their own business, when suddenly the Zionists attacked them and evicted them by force, as part of a preconceived plan of ethnic cleansing. > > Palestinians point out that Zionists carried out a number of massacres and terrorist operations, notably in Deir Yassin, where Irgun and Lehi forces killed about 110 villagers, and that the Haganah had formulated Plan D, which, the Palestinian partisans claim, was a plan for expulsion of the Arabs from Palestine. However, while Plan D called for expulsion of Arabs from hostile villages and towns in strategic locations, it did not deal with non-belligerents or with villages or towns that were not in strategic locations. They also point out that that Deir Yassin massacre was carried out by dissident Irgun and Lehi groups, and condemned by the Jewish agency. However, none of the participants were ever punished, and the Haganah and IDF later carried out evictions and massacres on their own. > […]Right of Return for refugees is guaranteed in International law under certain conditions, but these statutes were approved in 1966, many years after the flight of the 1948 refugees. Moreover, the right to self-determination is also guaranteed in international law, and is recognized as jus cogens, which would override other considerations. Return of refugees to Israel would negate the Jewish right to self-determination. If a Palestinian state were created that would allow expression of Palestinian rights, it would seem that symmetrical justice could not abrogate the same rights from Jews. If the Jewish state absorbed Jewish refugees from Arab countries, the Palestinian state could absorb Palestinian refugees. (see Right of Return of Palestinian Refugees in International Law ) > > Israelis point out that in consequence of the conflict and the creation of Israel, about 900,000 Jews fled Arab and Muslim countries and many their property. (see Jewish refugees of the Arab-Israel conflict). Thousands of Jewish refugees were created in Palestine as well, as every single Jew living in areas conquered by the Arab armies either fled or was expelled by force, except for those who were massacred in Gush Etzion. Moreover, there is probably no precedent in international law for forcing a country to repatriate hostile belligerents, and there doesn’t seem to be any applicable provision in any UN or Hague statute. After World War II, Germans living in the Czech Sudetensland, who had been active in agitating for Nazi takeover, were expelled and lost their property. Likewise, Poland annexed parts of East Prussia at the instigation of the USSR, and settled Poles there, in violation of allied agreements. No compensation was ever offered and no right of return was ever implemented. In 1947, India and Pakistan formed two states, and exchanged populations on a mass scale. No right of return was ever claimed. Turkey absorbed ethnic Turks from Bulgaria, and Finland absorbed Finns displaced by the Russians when Finland ceded territory to them. > > Palestinian partisans point out that most of the Jews who left Arab countries did so willingly, and that in any case, it is not their responsibility, but that of the Arab states. > > The Arab states do not want the refugees. With the exception of Jordan, they are unwilling to give them citizenship. The territory that might be allocated to the Palestinian state, about two thousand, two hundred square miles, is probably too small to house all of them adequately. Israel and the Palestinian areas both have extremely high population densities - over 300 persons per square kilometer in Israel and over 500 per square kilometer in the occupied territories, including over a million refugees. Which is to say, there’s no simple answer. But to be honest, the question as to numbers is only _part_ of the full question. The Ottoman system of land ownership, in specific [specifically delineated between public land and state land.](http://www.bartleby.com/67/1334.html) As such, many Palestinian tenants were occupying _miri_ land, not _mulk_. Although they held rights to it by cultivating it, they didn’t legally own the land once they left it fallow for some time. Israel is, as well, obliged to respect the laws of the region which were in place, and as the Ottoman Empire was the previous soverign power, their laws governing land usage still hold sway. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/198 "2008-05-14T11:20:39Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] You see no basis for objective comparison on such factors as literacy, voting rights and civil rights? This strikes me as a disingenuous effort to avoid admitting that Israel can do some things right. [/QUOTE] On the contrary it looks to me like a disingenous attempt to corner me into statements sympathetic to Israel. I’m happy to accept that if you belong to Israel’s privileged class of persons, life there can be fine and dandy. Full of opportunities for leisure and such other pleasures as may take your fancy. It’s the plight of people on whose sufferring Israel’s indulgences are built that troubles your rosy picture. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/199 "2008-05-14T11:29:29Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] There’s already at least one whole thread on the matter. Feel free to do a Search. [/QUOTE] Support _per se_ is one thing. The real question is how did that ‘support’ come to be unconditional? Indeed pathological. Plainly, in recent history many circumstances have merited a firm rebuke to the Israelis, conceivably involving fatalities. To refrain because the subjects are Jewish: Why, that’s equally bad to a killing of them soley on account of the fact they are Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/200 "2008-05-14T11:31:27Z")
[QUOTE=intention] … UPON EDIT - shakes his fist at Captain Amazing, who was there firstest with the mostest … [/QUOTE] Actually don’t worry. No disrespect to **Captain Amazing** but I was able to locate those tables. Thanks to him too, in fact. What I had trouble deriving was the ultimate single-digit rating for each country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622.md?page=11)