# Israel 60 years: A very improper celebration indeed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 8, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622 "2008-05-08T23:04:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/201 "2008-05-14T14:03:08Z")
[QUOTE=Wildfire\*\*MM] But are you aware of that the number of **jewish settlers** on the West-bank have increased with over **150%** since the Oslo Accords 1993 to 2006. In the 90’s, the annual settler population growth was \*\*more than three times \*\* the annual population growth in Israel. In the 00’s, the large settler population growth continues. > **[Israeli settlement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlements#Population)** > > Israeli settlements, also called Israeli colonies, are the civilian communities built by Israel throughout the Israeli-occupied territories. They are populated by Israeli citizens, almost exclusively of Jewish identity or ethnicity, and have been constructed on lands that Israel has militarily occupied since the Six-Day War in 1967. The international community considers Israeli settlements to be illegal under international law, but Israel disputes this.\[ As of April 2025, Israeli settlements e... [/QUOTE] My post was addressing the statement “at no time has Israel significantly suspended the settlement process in the occupied Palestinian territories”. From your own cite: > [@](#): > > **Dismantlement of settlements** > Given the dispute over the territories where the settlements were built, the issue of dismantling them has been considered. Arab parties to the conflict have demanded the dismantlement of the settlements as a condition for peace with Israel. As part of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, Israel was required to evacuate its settlers from the 18 Sinai settlements. The evacuation, which took place in 1982, was done forcefully in some instances, such as the evacuation of Yamit. The settlements were demolished, as it was feared that settlers might try to return to their homes after the evacuation. > > During the peace process with the Palestinians, the issue of dismantling the West Bank and Gaza Strip settlements has been raised. > > As part of the Disengagement Plan, Israel has evacuated the Gaza Strip and part of the West Bank, including all 21 settlements in Gaza and four in the West Bank, while retaining control over Gaza’s borders, coastline, and airspace. Most of these settlements have existed since the early 80’s, some are over 30 years old, and with a total population of more than 10,000, many of whom have yet to find permanent housing. I guess the meaning of “significantly” leaves enough wiggle room to ignore the quoted info for those who wish to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/202 "2008-05-14T16:00:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Support _per se_ is one thing. The real question is how did that ‘support’ come to be unconditional? Indeed pathological. [/QUOTE] Oh, I think I can see who’s being pathological. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/203 "2008-05-14T18:23:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] On the contrary it looks to me like a disingenous attempt to corner me into statements sympathetic to Israel. [/quote] Well, it might help your credibility if you can say a positive thing about Israel, even if it’s an obvious thing like how women having the right to vote is good. Heck, I can casually drop a few serious criticisms of Israel and I guess I could say something positive about the surrounding Arab nations, if I put my back into it. > [@](#): > > It’s the plight of people on whose sufferring Israel’s indulgences are built that troubles your rosy picture. I daresay the Palestinians have had ample opportunity to work toward a situation where they’re no longer under the Israeli jackboot and if this happens, the Israeli economy will not collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/204 "2008-05-14T19:29:04Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > On the contrary it looks to me like a disingenous attempt to corner me into statements sympathetic to Israel. Hitler really, really loved his dog. It doesn’t make me a Nazi to observe that he was apparently a really good pet owner, any more than it makes him any less of a mass-murdering fuckhead. Extreme absolutism is irrational and makes it impossible to take your argument seriously. Might want to look into that, chief. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/205 "2008-05-15T08:53:14Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Hitler really, really loved his dog. … Extreme absolutism is irrational and makes it impossible to take your argument seriously. Might want to look into that, chief. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Sevastopol] I’m happy to accept that if you belong to Israel’s privileged class of persons, life there can be fine and dandy. Full of opportunities for leisure and such other pleasures as may take your fancy… [/QUOTE] Haven’t I thrown you a bone here 87? There’s no need to go calling me absolutist. It’s quite a hurtful thing to put in writing for everybody to see. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/206 "2008-05-15T08:56:17Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] [QUOTE=Sevastopol] Support per se is one thing. The real question is how did that ‘support’ come to be unconditional? Indeed pathological. [/QUOTE] Oh, I think I can see who’s being pathological. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] A straight answer was always a long shot. I knew that. Nothing ventured… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/207 "2008-05-15T15:04:06Z")
So… is women’s suffrage good or not? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/208 "2008-05-15T19:27:31Z")
Happy Birthday Isreal! Many wishes of peace and success wishes to you. [QUOTE=Wildfire\*\*MM] and what the fuck does any american know about Israel and the jews americans have a mindset that they still live in the 1950s. Nationalistic pygmies with a duel personality, so fucking high moral in public, but at the same time have their own homes filled with perverse porn. Redneck evangelical christians, perverted hillbilly’s in the deep south and necons that wants to rule the world. Thats America! Most american can’t stand the fact that most humans actually don’t want to be american (Usanians) [/QUOTE] oh and that reminds me… Go USA! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/209 "2008-05-15T19:29:11Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] So… is women’s suffrage good or not? [/QUOTE] Not when Jews do it, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/210 "2008-05-15T20:11:30Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] Does it really matter? I mean, countries have always been built on the bloodshed of another, and Israel has as much if not more of a legitimate reason to exist than any other nation. [/QUOTE] Matters to me, not to whether Israel has a right to exist … w. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/211 "2008-05-15T20:20:35Z")
[QUOTE=intention] Matters to me, not to whether Israel has a right to exist … [/QUOTE] I’d be hard-pressed to think of a country that _didn’t_ have bloodshed in its past, either by displacing a native population or fighting a revolution or suppressing rebellions or waging war on neighbors… It’d have to be a colony somewhere without contentious neighbors or a pre-existing population. Pitcairn Island might be it, and arguably not even them. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/212 "2008-05-15T20:44:27Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I’d be hard-pressed to think of a country that _didn’t_ have bloodshed in its past, either by displacing a native population or fighting a revolution or suppressing rebellions or waging war on neighbors… It’d have to be a colony somewhere without contentious neighbors or a pre-existing population. Pitcairn Island might be it, and arguably not even them. [/QUOTE] Heh, in fact … > [@](#): > > Though the islanders learned to survive quite comfortably by farming and fishing, violence and illness caused many problems. Much of the violence was caused by some of the mutineers and the Tahitian men wanting the same women, there being fewer women than men. Two of the women were also killed in accidents in 1790, exacerbating the problem. Another problem was that when the land was divided between the families, the Tahitian men were not given any property and were treated like slaves by some of the mutineers, particularly Williams and McCoy. Two of the Tahitian men were killed by another Tahitian man, by order of the mutineers. The violence culminated one day in September or October 1793, when all four of the Tahitian men attempted to massacre the mutineers. Martin, Christian, Mills, Brown and Williams were killed. The Tahitian men soon began fighting among themselves, however. One was killed during this fight, another was killed by one of the women, one was killed by Quintal and McCoy and a final one was killed by Young. This murder of nearly half of the island’s population dramatically changed the community. With many of the mutineers having children with their wives, women and children began to outnumber the men. The women became dissatisfied and tried to leave the island. When this failed, they attempted to kill the men, but they eventually became reconciled. > **[History of the Pitcairn Islands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Pitcairn_Islands)** > > The history of the Pitcairn Islands begins with the colonization of the islands by Polynesians in the 11th century. Polynesian people established a culture that flourished for four centuries and then vanished. They lived on Pitcairn and Henderson Islands, and on Mangareva Island 540 kilometres (340 mi) to the northwest, for about 400 years. > In 1790, nine of the mutineers from HMS Bounty, led by Fletcher Christian, abducted 18 native Tahitians and settled on Pitcairn Island, afterwards setting... ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/213 "2008-05-16T08:20:29Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] So… is women’s suffrage good or not? [/QUOTE] It depends. It is good when female suffrage is progress towards universal suffrage and equality under the law for all people. Otherwise, it is a travesty. It maybe a coincidence but the latest from [the LA Times](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-pearl-bisharat15-2008may15,0,3923174,full.story) does resonate with our discussion of late: > [@](#): > > **Should the US help broker peace?** > … > The United States has a moral obligation to foster a lasting peace in the Middle East stemming from our complicity, as Israel’s principal ally, in Palestinian suffering. > > In addition, we have a strong self-interest in defusing resentment against us, especially in the Arab and Muslim worlds, generated by our unconditional support of Israel. > > Over the last 15 years, we have seen much process and very little peace. The reasons are multiple, and Palestinians are not blameless. But at the root, Israel, the more powerful party, has blocked a final peace because conflict is a condition of its continuing expansion into the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/214 "2008-05-16T08:44:16Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > It depends. How about literacy? Or does that have a qualifier, too? At least the writer acknowledges the Palestinians have played a role in continued Palestinian suffering, though his later response is somewhat amusing: > [@George E. Bisharat](#): > > Ethnic states are, in the real, diverse, multicultural world in which we actually live, inherently discriminatory and a bad idea – all of them. He’s trying to argue for a single-state solution which, to be perfectly blunt, is comparable to asking for mass suicide among Israeli Jews. There are few better examples of inherently discriminatory “ethnic states” than Israel’s neighbors, and if “Greater Palestine” ever came to exist and the majority population became Muslim, I have little doubt they will cheerfully and democratically declare it an officially Muslim state. It might actually work out for the best, though. Israeli Jews will stage a horrifically violent rebellion, they will wildly succeed as they always have, every Muslim will be killed or expelled and the author’s dream of: > [@](#): > > I could support a Jewish state if it were located in a place inhabited only by Jews. I might not admire the ethos of such a state, but I wouldn’t much care if there were no real victims of its chauvinism. …will be realized. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/215 "2008-05-16T08:53:59Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] How about literacy? Or does that have a qualifier, too? [/QUOTE] Do you have a comparison of the respective countries? That is what we are discussing. [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] …He’s trying to argue for a single-state solution which, to be perfectly blunt, is comparable to asking for mass suicide among Israeli Jews. … I have little doubt they will cheerfully and democratically declare it an officially Muslim state. [/QUOTE] Paranoia. [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] It might actually work out for the best, though. Israeli Jews will stage a horrifically violent rebellion, they will wildly succeed as they always have, every Muslim will be killed or expelled and the author’s dream of:…will be realized. [/QUOTE] Again, the South Africa comparison is apposite. “Succeed has they always have”? You are referring to Iraq & Saddam Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/216 "2008-05-16T13:21:15Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I have little doubt they will cheerfully and democratically declare it an officially Muslim state. [/QUOTE] [They’re way ahead of ya.](http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm) > [@](#): > > Article Six: > > The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out. > > […] > > Article Eight: > > Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/217 "2008-05-16T19:10:55Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Do you have a comparison of the respective countries? [/quote] Well, there’s always [wiki:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate) Rank/Country/Literacy Rate 56 Israel 97.1 72 Kuwait 93.3 76 Brunei Darussalam 92.7 80 Palestinian Authority 92.4 84 Jordan 91.1 94 United Arab Emirates 88.7 97 Lebanon 88.3 101 Turkey 87.4 105 Bahrain 86.5 111 Libya 84.2 113 Saudi Arabia 82.9 114 Iran 82.4 117 Oman 81.4 120 Syria 80.8 129 Tunisia 74.3 132 Egypt 71.4 135 Algeria 69.9 155 Yemen 54.1 I may have missed a few - I just went down the list quickly. > [@](#): > > Paranoia. Really. As FinnAgain points out, the intent to establish Islam as a state religion is written right into the Hamas charter. Do you assume the promise of a one-state solution is enough to make them drop this? Do you assume they’re only kidding and they wouldn’t _really_ declare an Islamic state? Please enlighten me. > [@](#): > > Again, the South Africa comparison is apposite. It is? > [@](#): > > “Succeed has they always have”? You are referring to Iraq & Saddam Hussein. I am? Not consciously, I assure you. Rather, my confidence in Israeli military success stems not from some ability to cow a population through mass slaughter, secret arrests, family massacres, rape rooms, etc. (Saddam SOPs) but their demonstrated record of battlefield prowess from 1948 onward. Of course, the kind of all-out urban civil war I described as the result of a “Greater Palestine” is quite different and considerably messier than just clobbering Egyptian or Syrian armies. I’d still bet on the Jews to win, but a great many people will be killed. Israel would be foolish in the extreme to put itself on that road. If you have any ideas of how to establish a one-state solution where all citizens can live in freedom and safety, please share. Alternately, if there are to be two states (or three), please share your ideas for a disengagement that lets all parties stand down with a minimum of violence. What demands should Hamas drop as a requirement of statehood and what should they keep? What concessions must Israel make and what should they not? What should Israel’s response be if they continue to be attacked by suicide bombers from the newly-independent West Bank or rockets from the Golan? Please, please, enlighten us. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/218 "2008-05-16T19:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Really. As FinnAgain points out, the intent to establish Islam as a state religion is written right into the Hamas charter. Do you assume the promise of a one-state solution is enough to make them drop this? Do you assume they’re only kidding and they wouldn’t _really_ declare an Islamic state? Please enlighten me. [/QUOTE] Not only that, but their rampant and pathological Jew-hatred makes it highly unlikely that peace would result, even under their planned one-state theocracy. Of course, Sevasty has previously ignored their anti-Semitism with the bizarre handwaving that it was “in the context of anti-Zionism”, whatever exactly he thinks that means. Anyways, from the same cite as earlier: > [@](#): > > Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised. > > […] > > Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: > > ``` > "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). > > ``` > > […] > > The Moslem woman has a role no less important than that of the moslem man in the battle of liberation. She is the maker of men. Her role in guiding and educating the new generations is great. The enemies have realised the importance of her role. They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. That is why you find them giving these attempts constant attention through information campaigns, films, and the school curriculum, using for that purpose their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated. > > […] > > For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there. > > You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it. Of course, having done this dance before, I can predict that Sevasty’s evasion will be something along the lines of how Hamas just hates Israelis, or just hates “Zionists”, or just hates Israeli Jews, or what have you. Ignoring, of course, that it’d still be rampant bigotry and prejudice in any of those cases… the fact of the matter is that Hamas is perfectly capable of delineating between Jews, Israelis and Judaism. > [@](#): > > Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. “May the cowards never sleep.” When they say they are waging a holy war against the Jews, they mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/219 "2008-05-16T19:45:33Z")
Speaking of “resonating with our discussion of late”, [here’s a nifty couple of takes](http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/) on celebrating Israel’s 60th anniversary. A lot of it sounds very familiar, both from this thread and in its use of themes commonly expounded upon in Dope threads on Israel and the Middle East. Wonder how much of it **Wildfire** and **Sevastopol** would have to read before finding something with which they disagreed. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622/220 "2008-05-16T22:13:21Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Speaking of “resonating with our discussion of late”, [here’s a nifty couple of takes](http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/) on celebrating Israel’s 60th anniversary. [/QUOTE] I find it interesting that the entry titled _Sixty Years of Bloodshed, Treachery and Terror_ ends with: > [@](#): > > As a human being with open eyes I condemn you Israel. As a human being I stand as one more witness to your awful crimes against humanity. The abomination which you are shall not forever endure. All tyrants have their date with destiny and yours will come apace. Those who celebrate and support this travesty of the human estate are welcome to their share of what awaits. Palestine, your day will come. …which is pretty much identical to some of the sentiments expressed in this thread (familiar, indeed). On its face, doesn’t this sentiment pretty much rule out any kind of peaceful resolution? It’s a call for Palestinians to bide their time until some vague future when they can have their revenge. It’s not an encouragement for them to seek a stable peace with Israel within this lifetime, let alone that of the next generation. If Sevastapol has (or knows of anyone who has) a plan in mind that could actually be implemented without slaughter, I beg him to share. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-60-years-a-very-improper-celebration-indeed/448622.md?page=12)