# Israel ad the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804 "2004-06-23T15:29:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/1 "2004-06-23T15:29:13Z")
I am reading this good book with lots of chapters o history and such. There is the claim made that Israel has a massive uclear capability, and because of this, its illegal for the U.S. to send the billions of dollars of aid a year. Is this so? If so, why? What hold do they have over us? WHy do people say Israel is a democracy? Is it? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/2 "2004-06-23T15:30:48Z")
please forgive. My N on my computer doesn’t register at all times. That should read nuclear. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/3 "2004-06-23T15:38:17Z")
What’s the book? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/4 "2004-06-23T16:20:03Z")
vanilla: > [@](#): > > What hold do they have over us? Merely that the American electorate supports Israel, so the government does as well. > [@](#): > > WHy do people say Israel is a democracy? Because it is. What ever made you think it isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/5 "2004-06-23T16:25:32Z")
While we await **vanilla’s** details about what book he read and why it is “illegal” to send aid to a country with nuclear capability: There was a World Bank report quoted in the 6/22 edition of USA Today regarding U.S. foreign aid and where it goes. Israel was said to receive 6% of American foreign aid. Egypt’s cut: 7%. Bosnia and Montenegro: 3-4%. Lends an interesting perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/6 "2004-06-23T16:54:59Z")
Hi, **vanilla**. > [@vanilla](#): > > I am reading this good book with lots of chapters o history and such. > > There is the claim made that Israel has a massive nuclear capability, and because of this, its illegal for the U.S. to send the billions of dollars of aid a year. > Is this so? It’s so that Israel is widely believed to have the Bomb. I don’t believe they have ever 'fessed up that this is so, but they are estimated to have [a couple hundred nukes.](http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/) Not exactly massive by US or USSR/Russian standards, but nothing to sneeze at either. But no, it is not illegal for the US to give Israel aid, either by US law or the UN. > [@vanilla](#): > > What hold do they have over us? What **cmkeller** said. Israel is our ally in the Middle East. > [@vanilla](#): > > WHy do people say Israel is a democracy? > Is it? Yes, it is. Which is why people say it is. One of the very few democracies in the Middle East, as a matter of fact. They have elections, a free press, and so forth. The CIA Factbook lists them as a parliamentary democracy. Did you need a cite? Let me guess - your book is saying that Israel is not a real democracy because the Palestinians don’t vote in Israeli elections. Is that it? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/7 "2004-06-23T20:02:01Z")
actually, the book made that statement so assumed t was llegal to gve “ad” to a country which had nuclear weapons. Go fgure. t also clamed the state of Israel was Marxst. But t was mainly about Iraq and the wars. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/8 "2004-06-23T20:14:50Z")
Marxist?? lol, first time I’ve ever heard THAT about Israel. 🙂 Why would it be ‘illegal’ for the US to give aId to ANY country? We can choose to give aid or with hold aid at our own discression. I’ve never heard that the US CAN’T give aid to a nation because its Marxist or anything else. Exactly where would such a ruling come from? The Supreme Court?? Who would have made such a ‘law’?? Or from the UN?? Again, I know of now ‘law’ that prohibits any nation to give aid to any other nation depending on its political structure. Why don’t you cite the book Vanilla?? BTW, to answer the OP, the reason why the US supports Israel (which has already been answered) is A) The majority of Americans support Israel, and B) They are one of the few real allies we have in that part of the world and C) They are a Democracy. And that brings us to your Democracy statement: Yes, they ARE a Democracy. A Parlimentary Democracy, different that our own system but not unlike say, England. Unless you are saying THEY aren’t a Democracy either?? -XT ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/9 "2004-06-23T20:20:33Z")
I can always count on the Straight Dope to give me the straight dope on what I’ve read (I read a LOT). Thanks for the information. The book? Tales From the Time Loop. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/10 "2004-06-23T20:42:32Z")
Icke isn’t always the most credible source when it comes to politics or international relations. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/11 "2004-06-23T20:45:57Z")
I can see that. SOmetimes he is lucid, though. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/12 "2004-06-23T20:53:29Z")
He’s lucid…he just gets his facts wrong, then draws outrageous conclusions from them. He’s as bad as Lindon Larouche or the Birchers, except he’s also got lizard people., which puts him one up on those two groups. Any theory’s better if you include man-eating lizard people. I haven’t read that book, though…does he still include stories about Clinton and Bush killing and eating people? That’s really the best part of his books. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/13 "2004-06-23T20:56:48Z")
[He’s a very nice boy.](http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm) ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/14 "2004-06-23T20:57:53Z")
A lot of it is about the wars in Iraq, this is the credible part; no weapons of mass destruction were there and it was well known, etc. Lizards are here, but I have’t gotten to that part yet (its his latest book- just came in the library). The other books were full of child eating lizards such as Queen Elizabeth. He may be running out of ideas. But thanks, I wasn’t way up on my Israel information. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/15 "2004-06-23T21:02:16Z")
Israel is a democracy, yes, in the same way South Africa under apartheid was a deomocracy **for the enfranchised** – the white and “colored” populations. And it really did matter, in civil-rights terms: the blacks in SA might as well have been living under a dictatorship. They might not be much better off now, in material terms, but at least they no longer have to be terrified of their own government. It’s the same with Israel. Jews (including those who live in the occupied territories), and those Arabs who live in Israel proper and have Israeli citizenship, can vote. The Arabs who live under Israeli rule in the occupied territories cannot vote, and, in consequence, might as well be living under a dictatorship – or under a foreign military occupation. None of which means it is illegal for the U.S. to aid Israel. I’d have to see a statute cited for that. It seems most unlikely. **Most** of the non-European countries to which we have sent foreign aid since WWII have been dictatorships of one kind or another. I’ve also never heard that it is illegal for the U.S. to send aid to a nuclear power. What is the title and author of this book, **vanilla?** ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/16 "2004-06-23T21:05:21Z")
see posts above. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/17 "2004-06-23T21:08:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Arabs who live under Israeli rule in the occupied territories cannot vote, and, in consequence, might as well be living under a dictatorship – or under a foreign military occupation. Err…the Arabs who live in the Occupied Territories ARE living under a foreign military occupation. That’s why they’re called “the Occupied Territories”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/18 "2004-06-23T21:13:56Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Err…the Arabs who live in the Occupied Territories ARE living under a foreign military occupation. That’s why they’re called “the Occupied Territories”. 🙂 Well, yes and no. The Occupied Territories are in an anomalous position – they’re not part if Israel, not even in the sense that Puerto Rico is part of the United States. But they’re under Israeli rule, and they’re not part of any state **but** Israel – Jordan has long since renounced its claim to the Territories, and no Palestinian state has ever been recognized. The Israeli government is the only government they have, but it won’t recognize them as citizens. Which is, again, like the situation in apartheid-era South Africa. The government denied voting rights to blacks on the theory that they were not South African citizens at all, they were citizens of the “independent” Bantustans. And at least the Bantustans were allowed to have real, home-rule governments. The Territories don’t have even that. So is Israel a democracy? Depends on how strictly we define the term. I guess the U.S. always was a democracy, even before slavery was abolished . . . ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/19 "2004-06-23T21:17:18Z")
You’d have a case, BrainGlutton, if Israel formally annexed Palistine and the other Occupied Territories. But they haven’t and won’t. Thats the whole point of giving authority to the Palistinians, no? They will have their OWN soveriegn nation…if there is ever peace between them that is. So no…I don’t see how Israel is like South Africa. Arabs living IN Israel (and under their laws) can certainly be citizens and vote. Afaik no blacks (or maybe very few blacks) were enfranchised in SA during aparthide. See the difference? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/20 "2004-06-23T21:23:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, yes and no. The Occupied Territories are in an anomalous position – they’re not part if Israel, not even in the sense that Puerto Rico is part of the United States. But they’re under Israeli rule, and they’re not part of any state **but** Israel – Jordan has long since renounced its claim to the Territories, and no Palestinian state has ever been recognized. The Israeli government is the only government they have, but it won’t recognize them as citizens. That’s not particularly anomalous either. Germany was in a similar position with regard to the four allied powers until the establishment of the DDR and the BRD, for example, and arguably, Iraq is in that situation now. There are two major differences, of course, the first being that there was never an independent Palestinian state, and the second being that Israeli occupation has lasted a pretty long time. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804.md?page=2)