# Israel ad the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804 "2004-06-23T15:29:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/21 "2004-06-23T21:30:59Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I can see that. > SOmetimes he is lucid, though. So? “Even a broken clock is right twice a day.” I could see picking up one of Icke’s books, just for shits and giggles. But you can’t possibly believe this guy. Lizard people? Anti-semitism? Holocaust denial? The Illuminati? Oh, and in case I forgot to mention it… LIZARD PEOPLE!!! Think about it. The man is not a credible source. If he told me the sky was blue, I’d probably ask for a second opinion! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/22 "2004-06-23T21:30:59Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You’d have a case, BrainGlutton, if Israel formally annexed Palistine and the other Occupied Territories. But they haven’t and won’t. That’s **my** point, **X.** > [@xtisme](#): > > So no…I don’t see how Israel is like South Africa. Arabs living IN Israel (and under their laws) can certainly be citizens and vote. Afaik no blacks (or maybe very few blacks) were enfranchised in SA during aparthide. See the difference? > > -XT Yes, that occurred to me too. But if you look at the numbers, and, more importantly, the results, it does not make much practical difference whether the Arabs in Israel can vote or not. If the Palestinians in the Territories were allowed to vote, that would make a difference, an enormous difference. If they were granted independence, that would make a difference too. But so long as the status quo continues, Israel rules – rules with great harshness and brutality – over millions of people who have no voice in its government. This is democracy? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/23 "2004-06-23T21:33:07Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > see posts above. David Icke? The same David Icke who claims to have watched William Buckley metamorphose into a humanoid reptile? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/24 "2004-06-23T22:29:09Z")
I recall there being some legislation or a determination that the US will not give aid to countries that engage in nuclear proliferation. I’ll see if I can dig it up. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/25 "2004-06-23T22:37:59Z")
Didn’t take long, what kept the rest of you? > [@](#): > > Moreover, the U.S. Foreign Assistance Act prohibits military assistance to any country “which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights.” The Proxmire amendment bans military assistance to any government that refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and to allow inspection of its nuclear facilities, which Israel refuses to do. To understand why the U.S. spends this much money funding the brutal repression of a colonized people, it is necessary to examine the benefits for weapons manufacturers and, particularly, the role that Israel plays in the expansion and maintenance of U.S. imperialism. [The site](http://www.wrmea.com/html/usaidtoisrael0001.htm) has an obvious agenda. It’s simply the first relevant one I found using “nuclear proliferation US aid” on google. However the bias is irrelevant to the factual claim of the FA Act and the Proxmire amendment. Those facts are true or they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/26 "2004-06-23T23:08:59Z")
**sevastopol** , I googled up that quote earlier, but what I found interesting was that nearly all the pages returned had a variation on the very same quote, and _none_ that I could find actually cited the U.S. code containing said Proxmire amendment. The Foreign Assistance Act mentioned is Title 22, and the word “nuclear” does not appear, as best I can tell, in the Act or any amendments to it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/27 "2004-06-23T23:34:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, that occurred to me too. But if you look at the numbers, and, more importantly, the results, it does not make much practical difference whether the Arabs in Israel can vote or not. If the Palestinians in the Territories were allowed to vote, that would make a difference, an enormous difference. If they were granted independence, that would make a difference too. But so long as the status quo continues, Israel rules – rules with great harshness and brutality – over millions of people who have no voice in its government. This is democracy? Right, but BG afaik the Palastinians don’t WANT to join Israel and become citizens…and they never have wanted too. Has there ever been a movement by the Palistinians to fully join with Israel, to become full citizens, etc? Its a two way street with neither side interested in compromise. Or is this not the case? Israel rules with ‘great harshness and brutality’ because Palistine is now and has always been a war zone…its been a constant fight since Israel declared independence. I’m not going to appologize for Israel or say they are faultless, as clearly they have a lot of things they are to blame for, but it goes both ways BG…BOTH sides are at fault for the way things are today. They share equally in the blame. Again, you’d have a case if the Palistinians were actively TRYING to become full citizens of Israel, if they were actively trying to GET annexed, if they wanted to become a full member…but they aren’t and never have been. Then don’t WANT to be voting citizens of Israel, at least the majority don’t want that. Again, if I’m wrong here, I’m willing to learn about it. I’m not an expert on Israel by any stretch of the imagination, and I’m willing to be proved wrong on this. -XT ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/28 "2004-06-23T23:38:30Z")
Okay, got it. The original appearance of this quote seems to be from [Left Turn Magazine](http://www.leftturn.org/Articles/Viewer.aspx?id=337&type=W). Just to establish context, the web site for the magazine says > [@](#): > > Ultimately, Left Turn believes that justice can only be achieved through the revolutionary reconstruction of society. Given the lack of supporting citations, and the fact that the other sites repeat text from this article verbatim, and the _very_ left-wing origin of the source, I’d say that there is no evidence that any laws are being broken by continued U.S. aid to Israel. That being said, I know that there has been a good deal of speculation that one of the reasons Israel has never publicly admitted to their nuclear arsenal is that it might complicate the politics of U.S. military aid to the country. For example, this column about Israeli nuclear scientist Mordechai Vanunu appeared in [The Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30400-2004Apr21?language=printer): > [@](#): > > Meir Vanunu noted that a U.S. law known as the Symington Amendment bars U.S. aid to countries that maintain secret nuclear programs. By accepting Israel’s strategic ambiguity, the U.S. government has never had to enforce the law. At a time when Iraqi, Iranian and Pakistan nuclear programs are the object of U.S. concern, the airing of Mordechai Vanunu’s story again could prove politically embarrassing for Israel and the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/29 "2004-06-23T23:51:57Z")
Thanks **JohnM** the Washington Post article seems a good lead. I’ve found a number of similar cites, including an arms proliferation act with similar provisions. On reflection I’ve heard many stories making the link between the Vanunu revelations and the legal consequences for US military aid. I’m prepared to accept that as true so far. Maybe I’ll look up a little. An aside. ‘We ally ourselves with Israel because they are an ally.’ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/30 "2004-06-24T00:01:46Z")
[The Symington Amendment](http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2000_01-02/rhchart.asp) > [@](#): > > _Adopted 1976. Sec. 101 of the Arms Export Control Act, formerly Sec. 669 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 as amended._ > > Prohibits most U.S. assistance to any country found trafficking in nuclear enrichment equipment or technology outside of international safeguards. President Jimmy Carter found Pakistan in violation of the Symington amendment in 1979 because of Islamabad’s clandestine construction of a uranium enrichment plant. U.S. aid to Islamabad was possible between 1982 and 1990 only through the use of presidential waivers. Well what do you know, military aid to Israel illegal. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/31 "2004-06-24T00:05:47Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > [The Symington Amendment](http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2000_01-02/rhchart.asp) > > Well what do you know, military aid to Israel illegal. except via presidential waivers ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/32 "2004-06-24T00:13:56Z")
True, but none issued regarding Israel. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/33 "2004-06-24T01:15:03Z")
Maybe we participate in the elegant fiction that since Israel’s not a declared nuclear power, we can pretend that they don’t really have any? Maybe we just asked 'em and they said, “Nuclear weapons? Nuclear weapons… nuclear weapons. Now, don’t you think that if we had nukes we’d tell you?” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/34 "2004-06-24T01:36:33Z")
I thought that I should cross link to this tangentially related thread- [Do Israel’s Interests Have Undue Influence on US Foreign Policy? (esp re NeoCons)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=233149) ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/35 "2004-06-24T01:58:51Z")
My take on it is that since we don’t _officially_ know that Israel has nukes, then the Symmington Amendment is not in force, and thus there is no violation of the law. If we were ever forced to officially recognize that Israel is a nuclear power, then we would make an exemption to Symmington (which is explicitly allowed for in the amendment itself), which would reflect poorly on our commitment to nuclear non-proliferation but would really have no effect on our continued aid to and support of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/36 "2004-06-24T02:38:14Z")
So **why** is Israel the only democracy “over there”? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/37 "2004-06-24T03:07:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > David Icke? The same David Icke who claims to have watched William Buckley metamorphose into a humanoid reptile? He was drunk. But seriously, Dave claims one can chage into a BUS if they really try. and I am not making this up. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/38 "2004-06-24T03:59:32Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Well what do you know, military aid to Israel illegal. No, because as you can see by looking at the code: [http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/htm\_hl?DB=uscode22&STEMMER=en&WORDS=nuclear+enrich+equip+&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&URL=/uscode/22/2799aa.html#muscat\_highlighter\_first\_match](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/htm_hl?DB=uscode22&STEMMER=en&WORDS=nuclear+enrich+equip+&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&URL=/uscode/22/2799aa.html#muscat_highlighter_first_match) > [@](#): > > to any country which the President determines delivers nuclear enrichment equipment, materials, or technology to any other country **on or after August 4, 1977** , or receives such equipment, materials, or technology from any other country **on or after August 4, 1977** (bolding mine) As Israel received it’s nuclear enrichment materials from France in the 1950s and '60s, the Symington Amendment wouldn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/39 "2004-06-24T04:33:46Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > He was drunk. > > But seriously, Dave claims one can chage into a BUS if they really try. > and I am not making this up. We believe you. So why are you actually taking ANYTHING he says seriously? The guy’s a fruitcake, ' **nilla**. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804/40 "2004-06-24T05:29:42Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > No, because as you can see by looking at the code: > > [http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/htm\_hl?DB=uscode22&STEMMER=en&WORDS=nuclear+enrich+equip+&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&URL=/uscode/22/2799aa.html#muscat\_highlighter\_first\_match](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/htm_hl?DB=uscode22&STEMMER=en&WORDS=nuclear+enrich+equip+&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&URL=/uscode/22/2799aa.html#muscat_highlighter_first_match) > (bolding mine) > > As Israel received it’s nuclear enrichment materials from France in the 1950s and '60s, the Symington Amendment wouldn’t apply. You may be reading the Act too narrowly. By comparision Pakistan appears to have offended by autonomously producing a reactor, not through import activities. Also are you assuming a fact not in evidence concerning dates? It seems to me unlikely that the US is making a determination on that basis while still officially ambiguous on the existence of said weapons. I note that my earlier reference is to section 101. Is the section you quote the same one under a different heading? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ad-the-u-s/251804.md?page=3)