# Israel and any Future Holocaust **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 13, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035 "2016-01-13T15:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/1 "2016-01-13T15:16:34Z")
There is another thread in this forum about how the Civil War is taught in the Deep South. The last post in that thread had to do with The Holocaust. I was going to make a post there about Israeil and The Holocaust but I feared it might be considered a “thread hijack”. So, I will post it here instead. * * * I once shared dinner with a diplomat from the Israeli embassy. The conversation eventually got around to WW2 and The Holocaust. He looked at me with a look that can best be described as “chilling” and told me the following: “I can absolutely guarantee you that nothing like that will never ever happen again.” Would any of you care to guess just how he could have been so certain? Also, what do you think he was referring to? Just my opinion, but I got the feeling he was referring to Israel’s nuclear arsenal and he meant to say that before Israel would ever again allow any nation to engage in the wholesale slaughter of the Jews, they would use their nukes to stop it. Chilling? Oh my yes! Would anyone here care to venture a guess as to his meaning? Also, if it ever appeared that some nation was once again attempting to engage in the wholesale extermination of the Jews, do you think Israel would put a stop to that by using their nuclear arsenal? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/2 "2016-01-13T15:19:18Z")
I answered in the other thread. It means he and others will fight back the next time. You don’t have to read anything more specific into it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/3 "2016-01-13T15:22:25Z")
Kind of hard to guess at his meaning without some context- Who was he? What other statements of this kind has he made? How did the rest of your conversation with him go? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/4 "2016-01-13T15:30:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Kind of hard to guess at his meaning without some context- > Who was he? > What other statements of this kind has he made? > How did the rest of your conversation with him go? He was responsible for encouraging and arranging for Canadian citizens to emigrate to Israel. The only other things I remember about our conversation was that he told me I would need a minimum of $25,000 in order to successfully move there. He also went on at great lengths about how living in North America was soft and easy. But living in Israel was hard, tough and nasty. He told me that most Israelis were sharp dealing people who would look to take financial advantage of me in any way they could. I don’t think he was very good at his job. I left the dinner table and never spoke to him or anyone else from the Embassy again. I thought he was a pretty scary guy and I wanted nothing to do with him and I wanted no part of emigrating to Israel. No Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/5 "2016-01-13T15:36:26Z")
Doesn’t sound like a high-ranking policy maker with access to Israel’s secrets or plans to _me_, so I would say ignore the blowhard. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/6 "2016-01-13T16:06:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Doesn’t sound like a high-ranking policy maker with access to Israel’s secrets or plans to _me_, so I would say ignore the blowhard. Of course, also feel free to ignore the fact that “Never Again” is a fundamental element of state policy of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/7 "2016-01-13T16:12:30Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Of course, also feel free to ignore the fact that “Never Again” is a fundamental element of state policy of Israel. Yes, but it’s a statement of attitude. It doesn’t pertain to any particular plans like the use of nuclear weapons. This is not some passing catch-phrase, the intent is very long term, applied to a very old culture that intends to exist for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/8 "2016-01-13T16:15:42Z")
I suspect this means Jews _in the Israeli region_ would not let genocide happen to them, without ferocious resistance. I doubt it means going nuclear if, say, Jews in South America were being genocide victims, although I’d expect Israel to use every diplomatic avenue possible to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/9 "2016-01-13T16:16:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Doesn’t sound like a high-ranking policy maker with access to Israel’s secrets or plans to _me_, so I would say ignore the blowhard. I suspect that he would say the same about you. But, since neither of us know him (or, for that matter, how many of his family and friends perished in the Shoah) why not lay off ad hominem? ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/10 "2016-01-13T16:22:01Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > He looked at me with a look that can best be described as “chilling” and told me the following: > > “I can absolutely guarantee you that nothing like that will never ever happen again.” > > Would any of you care to guess just how he could have been so certain? Also, what do you think he was referring to? > > Just my opinion, but I got the feeling he was referring to Israel’s nuclear arsenal and he meant to say that before Israel would ever again allow any nation to engage in the wholesale slaughter of the Jews, they would use their nukes to stop it. > > Chilling? Oh my yes! > > Would anyone here care to venture a guess as to his meaning? From Golda Meir: “We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon — no alternative.” There will never be another Shoah. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/11 "2016-01-13T16:46:09Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > From Golda Meir: “We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon — no alternative.” > > There will never be another Shoah. Heard it the first time. And the second time, and the third time. Repeating the phrase does not clarify the phrase, and does nothing to illuminate the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/12 "2016-01-13T16:47:01Z")
I’m opposed to the use of nuclear weapons in general, but I have to say that the idea of using them to stop a Holocaust sounds like one of the least bad uses of nuclear weapons I can imagine. So even if that’s exactly what the diplomat meant, I don’t find it particularly shocking. If a genocide against Jews in some region started again, and all other methods failed to stop it, I would be open to considering supporting the use of nukes to stop it (though it’s kind of hard to imagine how nukes would stop it except as a threat) ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/13 "2016-01-13T17:10:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Heard it the first time. And the second time, and the third time. > Repeating the phrase does not clarify the phrase, and does nothing to illuminate the conversation. An old saying comes to mind when I read your responses in this thread–“None so blind as those who will not see.” The meaning of “Never again” is perfectly clear. But for some reason, you seem to have a perverse delight in being willfully blind. I’ve noticed this about you in other threads, as well. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/14 "2016-01-13T17:15:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m opposed to the use of nuclear weapons in general, but I have to say that the idea of using them to stop a Holocaust sounds like one of the least bad uses of nuclear weapons I can imagine. So even if that’s exactly what the diplomat meant, I don’t find it particularly shocking. If a genocide against Jews in some region started again, and all other methods failed to stop it, I would be open to considering supporting the use of nukes to stop it (though it’s kind of hard to imagine how nukes would stop it except as a threat) Genocide is the most horrible crime imaginable. But I also believe in “eye for an eye”. If the Arabs become hellbent on exterminating the Jews, then both peoples going up in a mushroom cloud is the closest thing to justice that the Jews can get. The Persians will be thrilled. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/15 "2016-01-13T17:25:53Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > An old saying comes to mind when I read your responses in this thread–“None so blind as those who will not see.” > > The meaning of “Never again” is perfectly clear. But for some reason, you seem to have a perverse delight in being willfully blind. I’ve noticed this about you in other threads, as well. What is the meaning of “Never Again” when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons, if this is so perfectly clear? At what point is Israel willing to use them, and to what extent? Will they consider the safety of any other countries around their target before they let the missiles fly? No-it is _not_ “perfectly clear” to those of us who realize how fucking volatile and delicate politics can be in this day and age. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/16 "2016-01-13T17:31:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What is the meaning of “Never Again” when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons, if this is so perfectly clear? At what point is Israel willing to use them, and to what extent? Will they consider the safety of any other countries around their target before they let the missiles fly? > No-it is _not_ “perfectly clear” to those of us who realize how fucking volatile and delicate politics can be in this day and age. There’s a point beyond volatility and delicacy, and national security involving weapons of mass destruction lurks there. It’s the place that says “no matter how finely we dance and politely we talk, never forget: we will not die quietly, and we are taking you with us if you try to kill us.” Have you forgotten 50 years of Mutual Assured Destruction? Israel took some pages from the US/Soviet book. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/17 "2016-01-13T17:33:41Z")
Yup. I doubt there are any plans in the US nuclear playbook about making sure Switzerland and Sweden don’t get hurt. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/18 "2016-01-13T17:45:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What is the meaning of “Never Again” when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons, if this is so perfectly clear? At what point is Israel willing to use them, and to what extent? Will they consider the safety of any other countries around their target before they let the missiles fly? > No-it is _not_ “perfectly clear” to those of us who realize how fucking volatile and delicate politics can be in this day and age. It’s a vague threat/chest-puff – it’s “we’re ready and willing and able this time around”, without being specific. It’s deliberately vague, like so many things related to Israel’s nuclear capability. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/19 "2016-01-13T17:47:27Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Would any of you care to guess just how he could have been so certain? The Holocaust only happened because nobody alive at the time thought it _could_ happen. It was **literally** unthinkable. European Jews allowed themselves to be taken to concentration camps because they had no notion of what was in store for them. That will never happen again. No Jew, Israeli or otherwise, would fail to fight back against that scenario. That’s what he meant. You don’t have to read any further into it than that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/20 "2016-01-13T17:57:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > The Holocaust only happened because nobody alive at the time thought it _could_ happen. It was **literally** unthinkable. European Jews allowed themselves to be taken to concentration camps because they had no notion of what was in store for them. > > That will never happen again. No Jew, Israeli or otherwise, would fail to fight back against that scenario. That’s what he meant. You don’t have to read any further into it than that. I slightly disagree, Johnny; there had certainly been enough pogroms and riots and explusions and persecutions (see Inquisition, Spanish) in European history that Jews had experienced that it would be unthinkable, IMHO. That it happened in Germany instead of Eastern Europe/Russia may have been more of a surprise. Most ethnic massacres, like the Armenians, the Tutsi, and the Jews, tend to be of minorities that are often fairly well-off, but have a distinct difference in society and culture than their neighbors (which can cause resentment), and most importantly, do not have a central organization point (like a state) to rally and organize around. What I take from the statement is that the Jews have a homeland now, a place that they call their own and is not dependent on living among (potentially) hostile peoples and that any attempt to take that away from them can (and will) be resisted by an organized and aware people. IMHO as alway. YMMV. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035.md?page=2)