# Israel and any Future Holocaust **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 13, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035 "2016-01-13T15:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/61 "2016-01-15T13:28:35Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Perpetrated against _anybody? Anywhere?_ > > Well I’m certainly on board with that. > > That _IS_ the policy, right? Certainly any reasonable country’s broad humanitarian policy would be against genocide, but it’s probably obvious that when we’re talking about the _Shoah_, we are not talking about an “anybody, anywhere” type of situation. That’s obvious, right? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/62 "2016-01-15T14:55:53Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > I suppose this counts as an opinion. Jews are not a race of people so nothing against them is “racist.” Semites are the closest one could adopt to qualify them as a distinct race. Unfortunately, anyone who remembers his/her high school history knows that semitic people are not exclusively Jewish. I see this silliness has raised its head again. In English, “anti-Semitism” is simply the term coined in the 19th century to describe anti-Jewish bigotry. Coined, it may be added, by people who proudly adopted the label of “anti-Semite”. It is widely understood as such. I have no idea why some think that pointing out that being “anti-Jewish bigots” is somehow a superior category to be in, than being “racist”. Strikes me that, even if they aren’t exactly the same thing, they are both just as _bad_. In any event, “race” as it is generally used has a whopping share of social construct of identity - as does “Jewish identity”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/63 "2016-01-15T14:59:15Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I refer the OP to post #29 and the wiki link. Which wiki article is disputed, but might have some elements of truth. > > Namely that Israel will attack and destroy western European nations if any of them become sufficiently anti-Jewish (to avoid using any of the terms \*\*the\_diego \*\*seems to insist on misunderstanding). > > An alternative interpretation is that if Israel believes they are in danger of decisively losing a war with their Arab neighbors and is danger of being overrun, they will attack Europe as a final act. > > The charitable interpretation of that plan being that Israel intends to thereby incentivize the Europeans to act earlier to prevent Israel being overrun. The uncharitable interpretation is Israel simply intend to ensure they don’t go out alone and to ensure the final body count in the battle of Jews vs. Gentiles across all history comes out with more dead Gentiles than Jews. > > I personally take no position on whether Operation Samson is real or the product of anti-Israel / anti-Jewish propagandists. > > … It seems complete and utter bullshit speculation. The closest the wiki gets to citing any primary sources, is in an angry exchange of poetry between a German and Israeli poet. > [@](#): > > In 2012, in response to Günter Grass’s poem “Was gesagt werden muss” (“What Must Be Said”) which criticized Israel’s nuclear weapons program, Israeli poet and Holocaust survivor Itamar Yaoz-Kest published a poem entitled “The Right to Exist: a Poem-Letter to the German Author” which addresses Grass by name. It contains the line: “If you force us yet again to descend from the face of the Earth to the depths of the Earth — let the Earth roll toward the Nothingness.” Jerusalem Post journalist Gil Ronen saw this poem as referring to the Samson Option, which he described as the strategy of using Israel’s nuclear weapons, “taking out Israel’s enemies with it, possibly causing irreparable damage to the entire world.” Now I’m sure that Israel takes poetry seriously, but I have serious doubts if they put poets in charge of their nuclear strategy. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/64 "2016-01-15T20:41:19Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Perpetrated against _anybody? Anywhere?_ > > Well I’m certainly on board with that. > > That _IS_ the policy, right? We’re a very small country, you know. You can’t expect us to protect the whole world. That’s America’s job. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/65 "2016-01-15T21:21:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > We’re a very small country, you know. You can’t expect us to protect the whole world. > > That’s America’s job. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/66 "2016-01-15T22:50:50Z")
Here’s a link of [Israeli Defense Force F-15’s flying over Birkenau death camp](http://f.a7.org/albums/470x1500/37897.jpg). I don’t think “Never Again” is a distinct promise, it’s a posture. It’s saying “we’re heavily armed and still pissed.” Threats of violence are more effective when it’s not certain how far the other party is willing and able to go. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/67 "2016-01-20T23:18:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I see this silliness has raised its head again. > > In English, “anti-Semitism” is simply the term coined in the 19th century to describe anti-Jewish bigotry. Coined, it may be added, by people who proudly adopted the label of “anti-Semite”. > > It is widely understood as such. I have no idea why some think that pointing out that being “anti-Jewish bigots” is somehow a superior category to be in, than being “racist”. Strikes me that, even if they aren’t exactly the same thing, they are both just as _bad_. In any event, “race” as it is generally used has a whopping share of social construct of identity - as does “Jewish identity”. Superior or not, I’m pretty sure the term was coined by the receiving end. Why invent something patently inaccurate for yourself? “Quick, what can we accuse these bigots of?” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/68 "2016-01-21T02:38:10Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Superior or not, I’m pretty sure the term was coined by the receiving end. Why invent something patently inaccurate for yourself? “Quick, what can we accuse these bigots of?” To describe English clubs that are “restricted”, perhaps. Do you object to the term because Arabs are also considered to be “semetic”? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/69 "2016-01-21T02:43:21Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Superior or not, I’m pretty sure the term was coined by the receiving end. You are wrong. > **[anti-Semitism | Etymology of anti-Semitism by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/anti-Semitism)** > > Origin of anti-Semitism: also antisemitism, 1881, from German Antisemitismus, first used by Wilhelm Marr (1819-1904) German radical, nat ... See more. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/70 "2016-01-21T03:20:31Z")
Got it! It’s still wrong so I don’t think I’ll ever be guilty of it, no matter what I say or do. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/71 "2016-01-21T03:44:18Z")
What the hell point are you trying to make? You’re like one of those jerks who feels compelled to point out that “decimated” used to mean “kill one out of ten” when somebody uses it to mean “seriously fucked up.” Things can mean more than one thing. You understand that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/72 "2016-01-21T14:17:59Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Superior or not, I’m pretty sure the term was coined by the receiving end. Why invent something patently inaccurate for yourself? “Quick, what can we accuse these bigots of?” As others have pointed out, you are incorrect. What you forget is that people who hated Jews were _proud_ of their Jew-hatred, and quite happy to peg it to 19th century notions of “race” because that has pseudo-scientific respectability. The term “Anti-Semite” was coined because it sounded more “science-y” than “anti-Jewish” - it played to the then-fashionable penchant for scientific racism. Which makes your current objection kinda ironic. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/73 "2016-01-21T14:43:41Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > You’re like one of those jerks who feels compelled to point out that “decimated” used to mean “kill one out of ten” when somebody uses it to mean “seriously fucked up.” As Chaucer is, shall Dryden be. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/74 "2016-01-25T16:15:09Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > The Holocaust only happened because nobody alive at the time thought it _could_ happen. It was **literally** unthinkable. European Jews allowed themselves to be taken to concentration camps because they had no notion of what was in store for them. > > That will never happen again. No Jew, Israeli or otherwise, would fail to fight back against that scenario. That’s what he meant. You don’t have to read any further into it than that. I have re-read this thread several times since I started it and this post is the one post that I have read many, many times. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/75 "2016-01-25T16:18:27Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@the\_diego](#): > > > > I suppose this counts as an opinion. Jews are not a race of people so nothing against them is “racist.” > > You toy with words and definitions. :dubious: Yes, and the question then becomes: Why? ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/76 "2016-01-25T16:50:25Z")
Our understanding of security is informed by the [**Voyage of the St. Louis**](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005267) and similar experiences. The promise of Israel is, in part, the promise that there will always be a refuge for the Jewish people. I assume that any attempt to eradicate this refuge in an effort to eradicate this people will be resisted by any means necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/77 "2016-01-25T17:16:45Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Our understanding of security is informed by the [**Voyage of the St. Louis**](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005267) and similar experiences. The promise of Israel is, in part, the promise that there will always be a refuge for the Jewish people. I assume that any attempt to eradicate this refuge in an effort to eradicate this people will be resisted by any means necessary. Got no problem with that…just so long as there is an understanding that “resistance” to prevent an action is not the same thing as vague “retaliation” after the fact…especially if there is a possibility that others not involved get caught up in the retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/78 "2016-01-26T14:15:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > > > Our understanding of security is informed by the [**Voyage of the St. Louis**](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005267) and similar experiences. The promise of Israel is, in part, the promise that there will always be a refuge for the Jewish people. I assume that any attempt to eradicate this refuge in an effort to eradicate this people will be resisted by any means necessary. > > Got no problem with that…just so long as … Like it or not - it’s not up for vote. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/79 "2016-01-26T16:03:50Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Like it or not - it’s not up for vote. Again…only this time, to get the right effect, fold your arms and cock your head slightly sideways and raise an eyebrow. I’m not suggesting that it’s “up for a vote”(whatever that means). I’m saying that there is a difference between prevention at all costs and retaliation after the fact that could spread to innocent parties. Yes, at one time the Major Powers had a MAD policy…and it was MADness in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035/80 "2016-01-26T17:36:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m saying that there is a difference between prevention at all costs and retaliation after the fact that could spread to innocent parties. Two points … It is unclear to me how “never again” could be construed to mean “retaliation after the fact,” i.e., after we allowed it to happen again. Tragically, all significant geopolitical conflict impacts innocent parties. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-any-future-holocaust/743035.md?page=5)