# Israel and Civilian Kills **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840 "2010-05-09T22:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/41 "2010-05-10T14:27:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Over civilians? Yes. 1 civilian is worth a thousand soldiers. A million. So when Palestinians kill Israeli civilians then we should multiply that by a million? In that case, the Israelis are fully justified since the Palestinians are killing millions of them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/42 "2010-05-10T14:30:03Z")
One more thing: The 1 terrorist to 10 civilians statistic is probably not correct. Terrorists wear civilian clothes, not uniforms. Women and children can be terrorists too, if they fire rockets or make bombs. So the real ratio is probably a lot smaller. ---
**Author:** ![Dioptre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/278dde/32.png) [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/43 "2010-05-10T14:30:04Z")
To answer the OP question, asking for an appropriate Israeli solution to Palestinian fighters firing weapons from civilian structures: 1. Get Israeli forces and civilians out of firing range of Palestinian civilian structures. Israel has at least partial (and arguably most) responsibility for the location of the warzone through their placement of settlements and provocation of militants. 2. Use reasonable force to minimise civilian casualties. It is ALWAYS safer for soldiers to have laxer rules of engaqement (particularly with identification of targets) and hitting enemy positions with as much firepower as possible. That doesn’t make it right. War is inherently risky, and when your forces are in enemy territory, YOU should take the risks, not impose them on the civilians. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/44 "2010-05-10T14:34:37Z")
> [@Dioptre](#): > > To answer the OP question, asking for an appropriate Israeli solution to Palestinian fighters firing weapons from civilian structures: > > 1. Get Israeli forces and civilians out of firing range of Palestinian civilian structures. Israel has at least partial (and arguably most) responsibility for the location of the warzone through their placement of settlements and provocation of militants. > > 2. Use reasonable force to minimise civilian casualties. It is ALWAYS safer for soldiers to have laxer rules of engaqement (particularly with identification of targets) and hitting enemy positions with as much firepower as possible. That doesn’t make it right. War is inherently risky, and when your forces are in enemy territory, YOU should take the risks, not impose them on the civilians. And pray tell what are the Palestinians responsibilities? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/45 "2010-05-10T14:35:25Z")
> [@Dioptre](#): > > 1. Get Israeli forces and civilians out of firing range of Palestinian civilian structures. Israel has at least partial (and arguably most) responsibility for the location of the warzone through their placement of settlements and provocation of militants. What is this provocation stuff? Please elaborate. And Sderot is NOT a settlement. It’s a city. Are you saying Israel should force 30,000 Israeli citizens to leave their city? What about when rockets fall on Ashkelon? Or Haifa? > [@](#): > > 1. Use reasonable force to minimise civilian casualties. It is ALWAYS safer for soldiers to have laxer rules of engaqement (particularly with identification of targets) and hitting enemy positions with as much firepower as possible. That doesn’t make it right. War is inherently risky, and when your forces are in enemy territory, YOU should take the risks, not impose them on the civilians. What is “reasonable force”? Men going in on foot? That won’t minimize “civilian” casualties unless the soldiers are given order not to shoot towards the “civilians” who throw rocks at them. Besides, that’s ridiculously dangerous and likely to fail, unless you bring tanks in. And whenever Israel does that, it gets blamed even more… (See Operation: Molten Lead). ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/46 "2010-05-10T14:39:10Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > What’s more repugnant? How about sending your own child, strapped into a bomb filled with shrapnel specifically designed to inflict horrible wounds, onto a bus filled with women and children so that he can not only blow up himself, but kill and wound as many other people as possible? Do you think they would still be doing that if they had the same access to weaponry the Israeli’s have? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/47 "2010-05-10T14:40:37Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Do you think they would be doing that if they had the same access to weaponry the Israeli’s have? Nope, if they had the same access to weaponry they would send tanks into civilian areas and machine gun anyone who moves. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/48 "2010-05-10T14:42:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What is this provocation stuff? Jews have been the provocateurs throughout history. First they goaded the Egyptians into enslaving them, then they made the Inquisition torture them, then they provoked the Germans into genocide. If they would just stop being so “Jewish”. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/49 "2010-05-10T14:44:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > They should overthrow their terrorist leaders? You keep on saying that not ALL Palestinians are terrorists, which is true. But if the majority of Palestinians don’t **support** terrorism, why don’t they take a stand against it? Because they have other priorities like food and shelter. > [@](#): > > Not retaliating would be the most moronic thing Israel could do. And don’t provoke them? Israel doesn’t provoke them! What a well thought out and witty response. Would you like to explain to my ignorant self why it would the most moronic thing. And not provoke? Really? You think the terrorists/freedom fighters attack Israel because they really hate latkas? The two sides do nothing but provoke each other. Killing civilians is a provocation. Building settlements in contested areas is a provocation. Placing all blame on the other side is provocation. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/50 "2010-05-10T15:14:21Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Based on what reasoning? My complete lack of any deference for the military or any use of violence whatsoever. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Does that include child soldiers ? “Child soldier” is an oxymoron. “child victim of brainwashing” more like. > [@Babale](#): > > Civilian casualties will still happen, since civilians in Gaza often attack soldiers with small arms or rocks. Should soldiers just not shoot back? Didn’t say that. Well, personally, no, they shouldn’t, but not everyone is a pacifist, and I understand that. Of course they should shoot back when attacked - return small arms fire with small arms fire, return thrown rocks with rubber bullets or birdshot or rock salt,etc. Equivalent force, not overweening force as is the current wont. And anyone throwing rocks or shooting a pistol at the troops is not a civilian by my lights. “Soldier” in this case doesn’t mean just a uniformed government soldier, it means anyone engaged in violent conflict, on either side. > [@DanBlather](#): > > So when Palestinians kill Israeli civilians then we should multiply that by a million? :rolleyes: No, Mr Literal. That’s not what I mean - not tit-for-tat accounting of lives taken, but in each combat situation, whose life is worth more? It’s a rhetorical statement - basically, I’m saying soldiers must take extra-ordinary lengths to avoid spilling civilian blood, including self-sacrifice. So yes, when a Palestinian is shooting rockets into Israel, by all means, his life is worth next to nothing. Even I can understand wanting to kill him, or a million like him. But he’s not worth the baby in the room next door. > [@](#): > > In that case, the Israelis are fully justified since the Palestinians are killing millions of them. _Some_ Palestinians. This doesn’t justify any civilian retaliation at all. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/51 "2010-05-10T15:23:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > basically, I’m saying soldiers must take extra-ordinary lengths to avoid spilling civilian blood, including self-sacrifice Since all Israelis are required to perform military service, you are asking all Israelis to be self-sacrificing at one point in their life. Why not ask the same of the Palestinians? Shouldn’t they be willing to risk their lives putting a stop to the extremists? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/52 "2010-05-10T19:10:58Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Since all Israelis are required to perform military service, Did Israeli citizens have a referendum before that decision was made? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/53 "2010-05-10T19:40:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So in your opinion, the Israelis should let the terrorists sit inside a school and keep shooting rockets? Oh, and [thousands of citizens being killed](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm) shouldn’t go down too well, either. > EDIT: Thanks for keeping order, **tom**. Not that anyone should try to maintain parity in deaths but the number of Israeli civilian deaths pale in comparison to Palsetinian or Lebanese civilian deaths. I’m just saying that I wouldn’t try to use number of deaths as a gauge if I were you. And yes if the terrorist is sitting inside a school full of children, it is not acceptable to bomb the school. Its tough but if you want to keep playing the “but we’re better than they are so you should be on our side” card, then you can’t be marginally better than they are. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/54 "2010-05-10T19:43:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If the UN was there, why didn’t they stop the terrorists from firing rockets? > > As for sniping, it’s not like there’s a flat desert between Gaza and Sderot. The rockets go in an arc for long distances. Bullets go in a (mostly) straight line. And as for shooting from a helicopter? > > 1. It’s hard to snipe from a helicopter > 2. That puts the Israeli soldiers at a lot of danger as their helicopter could be shot down. Should Israel risk the lives of its own soldiers? If you are going to kill innocent civilians to prevent putting your soldiers in harms way then be preapred for the valid criticism that comes with it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/55 "2010-05-10T19:53:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I did not say that we should be devoid of sympathy. **DanBlather** is probably not saying that, either. It kinda sorta sounded like DB was saying exactly that. Palestinians are sending their kids to school with bombs strapped to their vests and you want me to have sympathy for their civilians? No doubt the Palestinians should take a page from Ghandi and MLK but I have trouble with folks that try to paint the Israeli side as blameless or excusable in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/56 "2010-05-10T19:55:54Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > And pray tell what are the Palestinians responsibilities? Are you under the impresssion that anyone is condoning suicide bombing and stuff like that? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/57 "2010-05-10T20:01:15Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Since all Israelis are required to perform military service, you are asking all Israelis to be self-sacrificing at one point in their life. Why not ask the same of the Palestinians? Shouldn’t they be willing to risk their lives putting a stop to the extremists? While they are carrying guns, they have a duty to exercise care to an extent that a Palestinian child in a classrooom of a building that is being used by hamas does not. ---
**Author:** ![Dioptre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/278dde/32.png) [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/58 "2010-05-10T20:04:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What is this provocation stuff? Please elaborate. > And Sderot is NOT a settlement. It’s a city. Are you saying Israel should force 30,000 Israeli citizens to leave their city? What about when rockets fall on Ashkelon? Or Haifa? > > What is “reasonable force”? Men going in on foot? That won’t minimize “civilian” casualties unless the soldiers are given order not to shoot towards the “civilians” who throw rocks at them. Besides, that’s ridiculously dangerous and likely to fail, unless you bring tanks in. And whenever Israel does that, it gets blamed even more… (See Operation: Molten Lead). Babale, You asked for alternatives to blasting civilian buildings with civilians inside. The fact that you don’t like the alternatives doesn’t make them any less reasonable. If the only way to prevent a rocket being fired which has a small chance of causing one or two civilian casualties is to cause several or many near-certain civilian casualties, then here is a better alternative that you aren’t going to like either - ignore the rocket. If the only way to prevent rockets being fired at Israeli civilians was to run over the Israeli civilians with tanks, do you think they would want you to attack the rocketeers? The Palestinian civilians have GREATER right to protection from the IDF than the Israelis, since they are enemy civilians in occupied territory, and entitled to special protection. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/59 "2010-05-10T20:22:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Dear people who complain about Israel killing too many civilians: > > Pray tell, what SHOULD Israel do when terrorists are firing rockets from hospitals and day schools? > This isn’t meant to be a thread debating who is right and who is wrong. I just want to see what brilliant solutions the complainers have. They shouldn’t do anything about it. If that’s the price they have to pay, then they should pay it. Attack them with raids on individual terrorists, target strike their leaders in their enclaves, or hell, kidnap/kill them from foreign countries with a buttload of spies. But never, ever retaliate in a hospital or school. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/60 "2010-05-10T20:56:08Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Since all Israelis are required to perform military service, you are asking all Israelis to be self-sacrificing at one point in their life. Well, except the Arab Israelis, who aren’t required. Oh, and the really hardcore religious “students”, they get out of it too. > [@](#): > > Why not ask the same of the Palestinians? Because they’re not conscripts, nor do they really have a say in the attacks the way Israelis have a say in their government’s policies? > [@](#): > > Shouldn’t they be willing to risk their lives putting a stop to the extremists? Yes, they should. And your point is? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840.md?page=4)