# Israel and Civilian Kills **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840 "2010-05-09T22:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/81 "2010-05-11T18:10:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No time to respond to the rest, but I most certainly do NOT think that. Seems to be the style. > [@](#): > > You seem to want the Israelis to wipe out large areas of Palestine indiscriminantly and > [@](#): > > you seem to think we should probably kill that kid now because he is going to grow up to shoot rockets at Israel. I note a certain … resemblence. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/82 "2010-05-11T18:25:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Of course the atmosphere is bad. It’s one of Israel’s biggest problems. But luckily, it’s not that widespread. Can you find racism? Sure! But the racism is held back by both Israeli culture (which is pretty accepting) and Israeli law, which prevents much of it. > > If you don’t believe the culture bit, read what I said earlier about the telephone incident. You’re right that single anecdote proves that attitudes towards Palestinians in israel is generally benign. Normally, marrying an Israeli citizen qualifies you for Israeli citizenship and makes all your children israeli citizens. This is not the case if the Israeli citizen marries a Palestinian. If an Israeli citizen marries a Palestinian, the Palestinian is not eligible for citizenship and their children born in Israel are not Israeli citizens. > **[Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law)** > > The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) 5763 is an Israeli law first passed on 31 July 2003. The law makes inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that are usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen (i.e., family reunification). It expired on 6 July 2021, but was reauthorized on 10 March 2022. > The law originated in a 2002 Cabinet order freezing the issue of citizenship on fami... There’s nothing racist about that law is there? I understand the demographic threat to “Israel as a Jewish state” but isn’t it much like the threat to American as white country? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/83 "2010-05-11T18:27:56Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Well in that case there is no hope for a Palestinian state, is there? We should stop pretending that the Palestinians have the will or the ability to have a state capable of living in peace with Israel. Maybe Israel should just conquer all the territories and make them part of Israel. Aside from the Palestinians having their feelings hurt they would be better off. Israel would punish the few bad apples that are interfering with the rest of the Palestinians who want peace. The economy and infrastructure would improve and Palestinian children woudn’t be turned into suicide bomber. In a few years thy;d all be Israelis getting beers and talking smack about the Germans who vacation there. The one state solution has been advocated by palestinians since day one. The problem has always been that Israeli zionists (a politically powerful minority) do not want to see an israel with a mojority non-Jewish no matter how much sense it makes. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/84 "2010-05-11T18:38:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, they do it because they hate Israel and don’t recognize its right to exist. That simple. And the Israelis hate the Palestinians and don’t recognize their right to exist. Give up pretending that you have the moral superiority here … you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/85 "2010-05-11T18:55:13Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Firstly IME Palestinians who have criticised Palestinian terrorism whether at home or abroad are non existant. > There may well be some maybe but I’ve never seen or heard of them IRL, on the net or in the media. > **[Borrowing from Gandhi? Palestinian passive resistance gains followers](https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0428/Borrowing-from-Gandhi-Palestinian-passive-resistance-gains-followers/(page)/2)** > > Palestinian passive resistance protests are gaining favor with some West Bank politicians and the public. But unlike Gandhi's followers, militancy and stone throwing remain deeply ingrained. > **[Deporting Gandhi from Palestine](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/deporting-gandhi-from-pal_b_540270)** > > Now that Israel has almost completed its "Separation Wall", it wants to build a "Wall of Silence" and control the flow of information and limit the presence of foreign-born eyewitnesses. Perhaps there is another way. Perhaps the Israelis can succeed at squelching peaceful resistance where the British Empire failed. > [@](#): > > Secondly Palestinian terrorists routinely and cynically conduct operations using their own people, preferably women and children, ( because it causes more of an emotional effect on the Western media) as human shields. We should obviously deprive them of those shields by dropping bombs on those women and children. > [@](#): > > For them it is a win/win situation as either the I.D.F. withholds fire for fear of hitting them’ and Israelis both military and civilian may die. > Or they open fire, members of the human shield get killed and the Palestinians weep crocodile tears for the benefit of the worlds press. Right, because the terrorists are shiedling themselves with their own kids, they are just that crazy. How about something that doesn’t result in over 10 times the “accidental civilian casualties” caused by the Israelis compared to the intentional civilian casualties caused by Palestinian terrorists. > [@](#): > > As to the poster who said that there was a widespread belief that the I.D.F. wasn’t worried about causing Palastinian civilian casualties I’m sorry but thats nonsense. I am still at a loss to explain how you can call IDF military action proportional or respects the rules of war when Hamas “intentionally” kills 100 Israeli civilians and Israel “accidentally” kills 1000 civilians. Its hard to square that with the notion taht the IDF really gives a crap about Palestinian civilian casualties. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/86 "2010-05-11T18:59:42Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Has there been any war in modern history in which civilians of other nations have _not_ been killed? > > Seems to me that your logic would effectively rule out fighting for any reason, no matter what aggression is directed at it, because nothing can justify risking an enemy civilan’s life - which is fine, but no nation on earth abides by such restraints. > > I can understand such radical pacifism on the part of individuals, but it strikes me as utterly senseless to insist on a nation observing it. I don’t mean that deaths of civilians in another country can’t be morally justifiable. I’m saying that there is a higher burden than just making your nation safer. Can we agree that killing one civilian in another land to protect 1000 of your own is justifiable? Can we likewise agree that killing 1000 civilians in another country to protect 1 of your own is not. I do not believe an Israeli’s life is more valuable than a Palestinian’s. Therefore if Israel takes actions that result in more Palestinians deaths than Israeli lives being saved, I’m going to consider those actions to be morally reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/87 "2010-05-11T19:00:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No time to respond to the rest, but I most certainly do NOT think that. Then what was the point of implying that the baby in the picture holding a gun was going to become a terrorist? I understand that Israel was invaded in 1948 but at this point you have win hearts and minds or deal with terrorists forever. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/88 "2010-05-11T19:02:49Z")
> [@Spiff](#): > > And the Israelis hate the Palestinians and don’t recognize their right to exist. > > Give up pretending that you have the moral superiority here … you don’t. This is like two paupers comparing their wealth. You are both morally bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/89 "2010-05-11T19:23:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Right, because the terrorists are shiedling themselves with their own kids, they are just that crazy. Yeah, when would that ever happen? [ > [@](#): > > Nizzar Rayyan, the Hamas leader who was killed, along with two of his wives and several of his children, in an Israeli bombing raid earlier this week, was one of the more bellicose Hamas leaders I have known. > […] > I knew that he was sincere in his devotion to the cause of Israel’s annhilation. The question I wrestle with constantly is whether Hamas is truly, theologically implacable. That is to say, whether the organization can remain true to its understanding of Islamic law and God’s word and yet enter into a long-term non-aggression treaty with Israel. I tend to think not, though I’ve noticed over the years a certain plasticity of belief among some Hamas ideologues. Also, this is the Middle East, so anything is possible. > > There was no flexibility with Rayyan. This is what he said when I asked him if he could envision a 50-year hudna (or cease-fire) with Israel: “The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don’t need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel.” There is no chance, he said, that true Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. “Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God.” > > I asked him if he believed, as some Hamas theologians do (and certainly as many Hezbollah leaders do) that Jews are the “sons of pigs and apes.” He gave me an interesting answer that reflects a myopic reading of the Koran. “Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce. So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people.” > > What are our crimes? I asked Rayyan. “You are murderers of the prophets and you have closed your ears to the Messenger of Allah,” he said. “Jews tried to kill the Prophet, peace be unto him. All throughout history, you have stood in opposition to the word of God.” ]([Nizar Rayyan of Hamas on God's Hatred of Jews - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2009/01/nizar-rayyan-of-hamas-on-god-apos-s-hatred-of-jews/9278/)) > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > “accidental civilian casualties” Scare quotes aside, perform a little thought experiment. If tomorrow all Hamas forces moved to the abandoned Israeli agricultural areas in the Gaza strip and launched their rockets from there, would Israel’s counter strikes hit the Hamas forces, or would they ignore the Hamas forces and hit Palestinian civilians? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am still at a loss to explain how you can call IDF military action proportional or respects the rules of war when Hamas “intentionally” kills 100 Israeli civilians and Israel “accidentally” kills 1000 civilians. Please cite which rules of war are being violated. Second, your demand for proportionality is sophistry, or do you actually want Israel to launch a random rocket into Gaza for each rocket Hamas sends at Israel? Anti-Personnel Rocket Bingo? Really, you want proportional reactions? Or does your argument ignore the fact that Israelis tend to survive rocket attack because pretty much every Israeli population center has bomb shelters like American cities have Walmarts, and Palestinians tend to take civilian casualties because their military forces hide among civilians and it is impossible to hit them without either invading and fighting house-to-house or using precision munitions which still have a kill radius greater than their intended targets? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its hard to square that with the notion taht the IDF really gives a crap about Palestinian civilian casualties. Of course, which is why we’ve seen carpet bombing on the scale of Dresden with each phase of the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/90 "2010-05-11T19:26:55Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I don’t mean that deaths of civilians in another country can’t be morally justifiable. I’m saying that there is a higher burden than just making your nation safer. Can we agree that killing one civilian in another land to protect 1000 of your own is justifiable? Can we likewise agree that killing 1000 civilians in another country to protect 1 of your own is not. I do not believe an Israeli’s life is more valuable than a Palestinian’s. Therefore if Israel takes actions that result in more Palestinians deaths than Israeli lives being saved, I’m going to consider those actions to be morally reprehensible. The issue is not whether the life of a person in nation A is more valuable than that of a person in nation B in some sort of moral sense - it is that the job of the armed forces of nation A is to protect the citizens of nation A. It is utterly bizzare to me, and quite counter-intuitive, that the armed forces of a nation should be required out of some sort of moral sensibility or balance or “fairness” to cheerfully allow the armed forces of nation B (or “terrorists”. “freedom fighters” or whatever) to kill exactly as many civilians as they do. This does not mean that the armed forces of nation A can do whatever they want to the citizens of nation B. Rather, they should follow the moral rules for “just war”: they should take _reasonable_ measures to minimize the civilian casualties caused by their (undoubtedly reasonable) efforts to protect their own citizens. This is not some sort of Israel-specific argument - it goes for any nation, anywhere. Is the war or military action they are fighting or taking “justified”? [Latin tag: _Jus ad bellum_] Are the means by which they conduct the fight “just”? [Latin tag: _Jus in bello_]. What we are arguing about is the latter, and in particular the concept of “proportionality”. This concept states that “An attack cannot be launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage”. Unfortunately, this is riddled with subjective judgments: in particular, how important the “anticipated military advantage” is likely to be. What it does _not_[ demand is some sort of one-for-one civilian casualty count. It doesn’t because such a standard is completely meaningless and impossible to apply. The intent is to avoid so-called “military actions” which are nothing more than excuses to terrorize civilians, or wipe them out. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/91 "2010-05-11T20:04:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The issue is not whether the life of a person in nation A is more valuable than that of a person in nation B in some sort of moral sense - it is that the job of the armed forces of nation A is to protect the citizens of nation A. > > It is utterly bizzare to me, and quite counter-intuitive, that the armed forces of a nation should be required out of some sort of moral sensibility or balance or “fairness” to cheerfully allow the armed forces of nation B (or “terrorists”. “freedom fighters” or whatever) to kill exactly as many civilians as they do. > > This does not mean that the armed forces of nation A can do whatever they want to the citizens of nation B. Rather, they should follow the moral rules for “just war”: they should take _reasonable_ measures to minimize the civilian casualties caused by their (undoubtedly reasonable) efforts to protect their own citizens. > > This is not some sort of Israel-specific argument - it goes for any nation, anywhere. Is the war or military action they are fighting or taking “justified”? [Latin tag: _Jus ad bellum_] Are the means by which they conduct the fight “just”? [Latin tag: _Jus in bello_]. > > What we are arguing about is the latter, and in particular the concept of “proportionality”. This concept states that “An attack cannot be launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage”. > > Unfortunately, this is riddled with subjective judgments: in particular, how important the “anticipated military advantage” is likely to be. > > What it does _not_[ demand is some sort of one-for-one civilian casualty count. It doesn’t because such a standard is completely meaningless and impossible to apply. The intent is to avoid so-called “military actions” which are nothing more than excuses to terrorize civilians, or wipe them out. It is a simple equation. Just take the square root of the average age of the killed bystander and multiply by… Obviously there isn’t an exact black line separating rightness and wrongness. Even the line between civilians and compatents can get pretty blurry. And of course it is subjective, all morality is subjective. I do however think if we can agree that a line does exist and that the line is the same for Israel as it is for any other sovereign nation than we could start to get somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/92 "2010-05-11T20:06:47Z")
And since there have been quite a few strange arguments advanced, I figure that a more reasonable one should be addressed: > [@Tamerlane](#): > > In an occupied territory the occupier is ipso facto responsible for the well-being of the occupied civilian. In this circumstance I have always argued that the life of any civilian, Palestinian or Israeli, is worth more than the life of a soldier. A soldier is at risk of violence by the nature of their job, the civilian shouldn’t be. There are a few problems with that. While it is true that an occupying power is responsible for the general welfare of its occupied populace, the international laws governing war explicitly state in a few places that military necessity and the security of the occupying power can come before the living conditions and sometimes even the lives of the occupied populace. The fact that Israel practices conscription to ensure its defense also means that under your metric, being conscripted into the IDF means that their lives become “worth less” than all the civilians involved in the conflict. I don’t think that either of us would disagree with the fact that any military should take all reasonable precautions to minimize collateral damage while prosecuting a campaign against valid military targets. But it seems to me that it’s much more problematic to categorically state that security forces have to put civilian lives before their own. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/93 "2010-05-11T20:24:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > But it seems to me that it’s much more problematic to categorically state that security forces have to put civilian lives before their own. You mean civilians on the opposing side, don’t you? Or do you think the security forces members are more important than Israeli citizens, too? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/94 "2010-05-11T20:26:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Oh really? I want the Israelis to “…wipe out large areas of Palestine indiscriminantly”? 😕 > > That’s news to me. Perhaps you could back that up? > > How about in the quote I quoted? I said “You seem to want the Israelis to wipe out large areas of Palestine indiscriminantly…” because you show a cavalier attitude towards casualties. So my comments were directed at you, not the Israelis. > [@Malthus](#): > > It is radical pacifism to demand perfection in avoiding civilian casualties while doing so. Avoiding doesn’t mean complete and total cessation of activities that might lead to civilian deaths. I said Israel should send in commandos for targeted raids and strikes. However, it does mean no targeting schools or hospitals, ever, with the kind of imprecise airstrikes that would lead to mass casualties > [@Malthus](#): > > By nature, terrorists (or “insurgents” or whatever terms are used) hide among civilians for cover. Rooting them out with _no_ civilian casualties is not possible, though it should, to the extent possible, be minimized. If the only two options are a strike on a school or no strike, then DON’T STRIKE THE SCHOOL. Try harder using some other plan. A commando raid with guns blazing will still probably cause less damage and death than a plan dropping a bomb from a plane. > [@Malthus](#): > > The reasonable position is that civilians should not be specifically targeted and that, to the extent _reasonable under the circumstances_, civilian casualties ought to be minimized. > > Though when you say things like "You seem to want the Israelis to wipe out large areas of Palestine indiscriminantly ", you are not exactly bolstering my opinion of your ability to reasonably judge the situation. If you don’t want people to make assumptions on your willingness to kill innocent people, you shouldn’t make statements that amount to giving a casual dismissal of civilian deaths as if they don’t matter and further justifying it by calling a nation senseless to try to observe it. Try to reply by talking about minimizing casualties instead of explaining why it cannot be done. Israel needs to adopt a more pacifistic stance against it’s enemies. It doesn’t have to give up all strikes, but leave the damn schools and hospitals alone, no matter what. As the more powerful and resourceful side in this conflict, it has the capability of fielding a more careful plan that lowers the amount of innocent deaths on the other side. It ought to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/95 "2010-05-11T20:40:13Z")
[quote=“FinnAgain, post:89, topic:538840”] Yeah, when would that ever happen? [url=[Nizar Rayyan of Hamas on God's Hatred of Jews - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2009/01/nizar-rayyan-of-hamas-on-god-apos-s-hatred-of-jews/9278/)] [quote] I see where it says he was killed while with his wife and children but I don’t see where he was using his own kids as human shields. And if he was, does that excuse the killing of the children of non-militants in the attempt to get at militants? > [@](#): > > Scare quotes aside, perform a little thought experiment. If tomorrow all Hamas forces moved to the abandoned Israeli agricultural areas in the Gaza strip and launched their rockets from there, would Israel’s counter strikes hit the Hamas forces, or would they ignore the Hamas forces and hit Palestinian civilians? If the only folks there were Hamas forces (by forces I presume you mean military type folks) then I don’t understand how they would be civilians? > [@](#): > > Please cite which rules of war are being violated. The one taht says taht you have to minimize civilian casualties. > [@](#): > > Second, your demand for proportionality is sophistry, or do you actually want Israel to launch a random rocket into Gaza for each rocket Hamas sends at Israel? Anti-Personnel Rocket Bingo? Really, you want proportional reactions? Proportional doesn’t mean identical but when the civilian body count is 10 times higher on the Palestinian side than on the Israeli side, it is hard to see how the response could have been proportional. > [@](#): > > Palestinians tend to take civilian casualties because their military forces hide among civilians and it is impossible to hit them without either invading and fighting house-to-house or using precision munitions which still have a kill radius greater than their intended targets? Then go house to house when you invade. > [@](#): > > Of course, which is why we’ve seen carpet bombing on the scale of Dresden with each phase of the conflict. So Dresden is the demarcation line where too many civilian casualties occur? All you have to do is kill fewer civilians than the Allies did in Dresden and that means you are minimizing civilian casualties? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/96 "2010-05-11T20:47:03Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > It is a simple equation. Just take the square root of the average age of the killed bystander and multiply by… > > Obviously there isn’t an exact black line separating rightness and wrongness. Even the line between civilians and compatents can get pretty blurry. And of course it is subjective, all morality is subjective. I do however think if we can agree that a line does exist and that the line is the same for Israel as it is for any other sovereign nation than we could start to get somewhere. I think that sums up my opinion. As long as we aren’t using a special yardstick for Israel, I’m OK with reasonable civilian casualties. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/97 "2010-05-11T20:48:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I don’t think that either of us would disagree with the fact that any military should take all reasonable precautions to minimize collateral damage while prosecuting a campaign against valid military targets. But it seems to me that it’s much more problematic to categorically state that security forces have to put civilian lives before their own. I would add that in some cases you pass on a military target because its just not worth the civilian casualties it would cause. So, for example, you wouldn’t bomb a school to get that one kid that shot a rocket off the roof. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/98 "2010-05-11T21:30:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I said “You seem to want the Israelis to wipe out large areas of Palestine indiscriminantly…” because you show a cavalier attitude towards casualties. So my comments were directed at you, not the Israelis. Yes, I realize it was directed at me. It was, however, a totally unjustified comment, and not in fact based on anything I said. The only reasonable explaination is that, unable to contradict what I did say, you invented out if thin air some completely unrealated (and unreasonable) thing that you _wish_ I had said, and kicked the ever-living shit out of that instead. This is what is technically known as a “straw man” argument. Straw man arguments are not convincing. > [@](#): > > If you don’t want people to make assumptions on your willingness to kill innocent people, you shouldn’t make statements that amount to giving a casual dismissal of civilian deaths as if they don’t matter and further justifying it by calling a nation senseless to try to observe it. Once again, that isn’t even close to anything I actually said. I am not responsible for your creation of straw-man arguments; you are. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/99 "2010-05-11T21:34:17Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I do however think if we can agree that a line does exist and that the line is the same for Israel as it is for any other sovereign nation than we could start to get somewhere. I have never said anything else. My objection to the strong critique of the Israeli military is that it is often _they_ who are imposing a special, Israel-only test that they would be unwilling to abide by in the case of their own nations. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/100 "2010-05-11T21:42:26Z")
I don’t complain. Israel is under siege. Has been since day one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840.md?page=6)