# Israel and Civilian Kills **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840 "2010-05-09T22:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/141 "2010-05-13T17:04:10Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > does Israel recognize Palestine’s right to exist? You say this in response to the fact that Israel already offered the Palestinians their own autonomous state? And no, “the Arabs” have not “for decades”. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Still Israel does have a partner. A bunch of killers and bandits. If those “killers and bandits” wont’ make peace then rather obviously they’re not partners for peace. And your claims are simply false, they are not “the same” as are always involved in peace negotiations recently. Groups like Hamas are genocidal and rejectionist, there is no ‘mid ground’ point for negotiation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/142 "2010-05-13T17:21:55Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Forest for the trees? He was a leader of Hamas, while Hamas was waging a war against Israel, and he was encamped among his family members. He was using them as human shields so that if he was hit, there would be civilian casualties to point out. As for whether or not a leader for enemy forces ‘excuses’ the deaths of non-combatants, Malthus has already quoted the relevant principle. So this guy has his family follow him around to provide some sort of constant human shield? If so then I don’t see any way around killing his family but I did not get the impression that he constantly surrounded himself with his children. > [@](#): > > So then you agree that the civilians are accidental damage that is minimized to the degree possible and that if Hamas based itself out of civilian areas, the civilian areas wouldn’t be touched. Of course, no, not only “military type folks”. Nope. I agree that you would rather kill only the couple of terrorists firing rockets from teh roof of the school building when you blow up that school full of children but you are minimizing the civilian casualties. I agree that things would be a lot simpler for you if Hamas would engage you in direct combat but so what? > [@](#): > > Removing Hamas’ command and control ability in their fiefdom constitutes a definite military advantage. If you killed every Hamas leader with a single bomb, would Israel be safe from rockets and terrorism from that point forward? If you really think Hamas is supported by the populace to the degree that you imply then you are never going to achieve peace through conventional military means, every Hamas leader killed will be replaced by another unless youa re simply willing to kill all Palestinians and I don’t think Israel has the stomach to commit genocide. You are stuck with endless war or trying to win hearts and minds. > [@](#): > > That is not a cite, that is a rough (and inaccurate) paraphrase. There are military laws that demand that civilian casualties be balanced against military need. There are no blanket demand that civilian casualties must definitively be “minimized”. And you believe Israel has been observing this balance? > [@](#): > > No, the law of proportionality means that you do not cause clearly excessive civilian loss when hitting a valid military target. Counting up casualties on each side is not the calculus of just war. And you are missing the key dynamic; Israeli casualties are low because they hide in bomb shelters, Palestinian casualties are high because their military forces use them as human shields. Putting aside the fact that these rocket attacks are generally pretty ineffective compared to what an organized military force can achieve: > **[List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel in 2002–2006](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001%E2%80%932006)** > > The following is a partial list of Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel between 2002 and 2006. These attacks commenced in April 2001, although the first rocket to hit an Israeli city was on 5 March 2002, and the first Israeli fatality was 28 June 2004. > 17 rockets and 455 mortar shells were fired at Israel in 2002 and there were a total of 10 injuries caused. I get the feeling that you believe that there is not a reasonable alternative to what Israel has been doing that would result in lower civilian casualties? > [@](#): > > House to house fighting is one of the single most brutal activities any military can engage in, barring carpet bombing. Please explain how Jenin was acceptable to you or the world. I don’t know if bulldozing homes with people in them is any better bombing those homes but the attitude of at least some of the IDF seems clear: > **[Battle of Jenin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin#Damages)** > > Battle of Jenin may refer to: “I didn’t see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D-9. and I didn’t see house[s] falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn’t care at all.” Jenin doesn’t really sound like house to hosue fighting to me. > [@](#): > > Your claim that the IDF doesn’t give a damn about Palestinian civilians is false, or they’d be using extreme measures rather than targeted strikes. You can not then properly cast that argument as if everything short of firebombing a city is being advocated. Then why are you comparing what you are doing with Dresden? I don’t think the IDF is entirely indifferent to Palestinian lives. I just think they are more indifferent than they should be. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/143 "2010-05-13T17:33:42Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Did Dan Blather just compare British treatment of the Irish to The Holocaust? > > I’ll admit we committed our atrocities, but that seems a bit of an extreme viewpoint. Did I use “The”? Holocaust is a word all by itself, look it up. ETA: and even in your post you said that the UK had not endured _a_ Holocaust. And that is what I responded to. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/144 "2010-05-13T17:37:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So this guy has his family follow him around to provide some sort of constant human shield? Your denials are not exactly convincing. The military liaison for a group waging war against another nation chooses to stay with his family even after he’s given warning that he’s going to be targeted, and your response is to say that unless he had his family follow him around he wasn’t using them as human shields. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you killed every Hamas leader with a single bomb, would Israel be safe from rockets and terrorism from that point forward? Non sequitur plus strawman. Taking out command and control (as well as bomb/rocket makers) gives you breathing room. Your argument is nonsensical. We routinely target generals and key military personnel even though, of coruse, others can be promoted. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you believe Israel has been observing this balance? I’ve pointed this out to you several times. Please show me another war waged in a dense urban environment where enemy forces wear no uniforms, attack from population centers and use human shields that has a lower casualty ratio than 1:2. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I get the feeling that you believe that there is not a reasonable alternative to what Israel has been doing that would result in lower civilian casualties? You’re free to cite one. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Jenin doesn’t really sound like house to hosue fighting to me. Which is rather obviously was. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/145 "2010-05-13T17:51:10Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m saying it is the other way around - Israel is getting the “special treatment”. … the percentage of UN resolutions concerning Israel/Palestine/Lebanon compared with other conflicts show an absurd over-emphasis on the conflicts in that part of the world, which acts as a good proxy for “scrutiny and criticism”. > > Here’s a helpful table: > > [Israel, Palestine, and the United Nations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestine,_and_the_United_Nations#Resolutions_in_comparison_with_other_conflicts) > > The conflict involving Israel is the subject of 249 resolutions, though the total number of persons killed in the relevant time was 6,935. That’s a ratio of deaths to resolutions of aprox. 28 to 1. That’s an interesting cite. Its also interesting to note that there are more resolutions against Palestine and the palestinians than against israel. Maybe the UN is picking on the Palestinians. There is certainly a lot of focus on the middle east. Perhaps it is because the creation of Israel is one of the first and most momentous things the UN ever did. The Palestinian issue is the oldest issue the UN has been dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/146 "2010-05-13T17:55:39Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Did I use “The”? Holocaust is a word all by itself, look it up. > > ETA: and even in your post you said that the UK had not endured _a_ Holocaust. And that is what I responded to. Yes, Holocaust with a capital “H”. Which holocaust did you think I meant? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/147 "2010-05-13T17:59:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its also interesting to note that there are more resolutions against Palestine and the palestinians than against israel. …what? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Perhaps it is because the creation of Israel is one of the first and most momentous things the UN ever did. That claim has already been refuted. The UN did nothing and in fact refrained from creating the state of Israel and the state of Israel’s creation was informed by the war, not the UN. Why are you repeating something that isn’t a fact? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/148 "2010-05-13T18:00:55Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > There’s nothing racist going on. Last time I checked many Sephardic Jews _were_ Arabs. My best friend David Cohen has olive skin, wooly hair, and other Semitic features. His father has even darker skin and black hair. They look just like Arabs. This would be because they are. > > When people say Arab, they really mean non-Jewish Arab. The Jewish Arabs living in the ME almost universally moved to Israel when it was founded. So you don’t think its racist to say that anyone can become an Israeli citizen by marrying an Israeli except Palestinians. If a Palestinian maries an israeli, they cannot become a citizen by reason of their marriage. You don’t think it is racist to say that children born in Israel are Israeli citizens unless one of tgheir parents is a Palestinian? If a child born in Israel has a Palestinian parent, they do not become citizens by reason of their place of birth even if one of their parents is an Israeli citizen. You think that Israel cannot be racist against Palestinians because Israel took in Arab Jews that were expelled from Arab countries. that just proves that Israel isn’t racist against Arabs generally. If a Syrian marries an Israeli, the become Israeli citizens, not so for Palestinians. Does the fact that Israel doesn’t discriminate against Syrians mean that they are not racist against Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/149 "2010-05-13T18:05:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you don’t think its racist to say that anyone can become an Israeli citizen by marrying an Israeli except Palestinians. If a Palestinian maries an israeli, they cannot become a citizen by reason of their marriage. The Palestinians aren’t a race, Arabs are allowed to gain citizenship in that manner, and the issue is one of _a nation that is at war with Israel_, not a ‘race’ they don’t like. [quote=“Damuri\_Ajashi, post:148, topic:538840”] You think that Israel cannot be racist against Palestinians because Israel took in Arab Jews that were expelled from Arab countries. that just proves that Israel isn’t racist against Arabs generally. [/qutoe] … and makes choices about Palestinians based on their nationality rather than their race. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Does the fact that Israel doesn’t discriminate against Syrians mean that they are not racist against Palestinians? No, the fact that all Palestinians who stayed in Israel now form roughly 1/5 of their population and have full rights and citizenship under the law, but those who have a different nationality are treated differently does that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/150 "2010-05-13T18:08:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Of course there’s nothing racist going on. Not only are the Mizrahim “Arab Jews” but citizenship laws in Israel aren’t based on race at all, Arab citizens of Israel don’t have their children’s citizenship revoked. The issue is one of _nationality_. A specific group of non-Israelis, who have been at war with Israel for quite some time, are treated differently than others. > > Damuri’s claim that this isn’t about security but racial demographics is… odd. How is this about security and not racial demographics? A Palestinian that marries an Israeli isn’t expelled because they are a security threat. They can stay and remain married to the Israeli, they simply cannot become citizens or vote as a result of their marriage. how does that imrpove Israel’s security? If this law is for security pruposes, why doesn’t the law apply to Lebanese or Syrians? Why only the Palestinians? I can’t believe anyone would actually defend this law. It is clearly designed to slow the demographic shift in Israel, in fact Israeli politicians have alluded to the demographic purpose of the law (they also cite security reasons but I still don’t understand how letting these people into your country but not letting them become citizens enhances security) “Those in favor of the law, such as Ze’ev Boim, say it is aimed at preventing terrorist attacks and that “We have to maintain the state’s democratic nature, but also its Jewish nature.”[3]” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/151 "2010-05-13T18:18:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How is this about security and not racial demographics? Because member of the Arab race aren’t the target? Because people who claim nationality in a hostile nation to Israel are? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > how does that imrpove Israel’s security? As just a very, very basic example, being able to get through checkpoints with Israeli plates. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If this law is for security pruposes, why doesn’t the law apply to Lebanese or Syrians? Why only the Palestinians? You tell me. How many of the last, say, dozen suicide bombers infiltrated from Lebanon or Syria? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It is clearly designed to slow the demographic shift in Israel While allowing other Arabs to shift the demographic. I guess we’re back to Israel just being incompetently racist. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > , but also its Jewish nature. Israel remains the Jewish state as long as the Law of Return is in effect. But if someone could vote to rescind that law and, say, institute Islam as the official religion of the state? That might just change things. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/152 "2010-05-13T18:19:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s an interesting cite. Its also interesting to note that there are more resolutions against Palestine and the palestinians than against israel. Maybe the UN is picking on the Palestinians. > > There is certainly a lot of focus on the middle east. Perhaps it is because the creation of Israel is one of the first and most momentous things the UN ever did. The Palestinian issue is the oldest issue the UN has been dealing with. The issue is taht the conflict between the Israelis and Palsetinians is treated by the UN (and, really, by everyone else) as a ‘special case’. Different rules are applied to it, more attention is paid to it, and it comes in for a critique that is unique - from all sides. The UN did not in fact “create” Israel - warfare did that - the original UN partition plan being rejected by Israel’s neighbours and the creation of Israel being taken, by them, as a declaration of war. More to the point, the excessive and indeed obsessive focus on Israel has led to all sorts of bizzare and absurd distortions. A person unaquainted with the situation (say, a visitor from Mars) examining the UN’s records could be foregiven for thinking that Israel is _the_ single most important issue in the world today, and actions by Israel the most brutral - after all, if you examine the UN Committee on Human Rights, a full half of their declarations are concerned with this conflict (pretty well unanimously contra Israel); the UN has two refugee organizations - one to deal with Palestinian refugees, and one to deal with _all other refugees in the whole world_; etc. etc. Does Israel commit abuses and excesses? Of course it does. Every country involved in a lengthy conflict will. Have these been particularly or uniquely “bad”? No, they have not - in fact, in comparison with other worldwide ethnic conflicts, that between Israel and the Palestinians/proto Palestinian state is positively gentlemanly. Just look at the pivotal year, 1948. The Bitish empire was cracking up in both Palestine and India. Which was _worse_ or _more significant_? Judging by world interest, one would guess Palestine … Now, those bizzare and absurd distortions have had their effect: Palestine has become emotional and symbolic, to many in the first world, of colonial-era grievances. They tend to look at Israelis as if they were European colonists. Israelis are not, however, “colonials”. They have no ‘metropolitan’ to ‘go back’ to. More than half of their population is in ancestry, middle eastern anyway (Shephardic or Mizrai). Most of the rest were born there and have no connection whatsoever with Poland or Romania or wherever their grandparents came from. Even symbolically, this excessive and obsessive focus appears to me wrong-headed, as it is based on a bunch of wrong assumptions about who the Israelis _are_. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/153 "2010-05-13T18:23:07Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Well it looks like I’ve proved my point. > > You’ve obviously had a good look round the internet to find someone, anyone who is a Palestinian who condemns Palestinian terrorism and have come up with absolutely nothing. I didn’t realize that was your main point. So if I can find some number of Palestinians that denounce terrorism, then what? Then do you have toa gree to everything I say? If EVERY single Palestinian sees Hamas as freedom fighters, does that make unneccessary civilian casualties any more acceptable? > [@](#): > > I read both of your links and they described Palestinians (for a change) using non terrorist means to advance their propaganda. > > Yes Palestinians did hold demonstrations where they didn’t try to use violence against Israelis but nowhere in either of your links does a single Palestinian condemn Palestinian terrorism. > > Other terrorist organisations have used equally cynical tactics in the recent past such as the so called"Bomb and the Ballot box". > (The idea being to terrorise ordinary people into voting for your candidate; though the two strategies are supposed to be seperate entities) My point was that I think that peaceful resistance is likely to get a lot further when you have rocks and the other side has guns and tanks. After 60 years, you would think that these guys would have at least that much figured out by now. How exactly would Israel fight peaceful Palestinian demonstrations? If this became the modus operandi, how would you justify the discriminatory laws or withhold the right of return? Unless you view peaceful demonstrations (even illegal peaceful demonstrations) as a security threat, how could you follow the road you follow now? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/154 "2010-05-13T18:28:48Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > The Palestinians are children who will not accept 95% of what they want, but instead stamp their feet and prolong their suffering. A peaceful Palestinian state would receive billions of dollars of foreign aid an could quickly become as prosperous as Israel. Instead they will have more generations of people living in refugee camps. you are assuming they are asking for everything they want. If you were to give hamas 95% of what they want, you would end up with 5% of Israel. BTW, I don’t think the right of return is 5% of what they want. 1967 borders isn’t supposed to the Palestinian offer to the Israelis to which the Israelis can counteroffer with 95% of the land they proposed (guess which 5% of the land Israel wants to keep). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/155 "2010-05-13T18:34:57Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Do? Something that works, I suppose. Has the present policy worked? If so, do that, if not stop doing it. > > How about building a robust government in Palestine that can keep order? Just kicking out the crazy ideas here. That is a crazy idea because that robust government would have to have sufficient military and police power to throttle internal dissent from terrorists and Israel isn’t about to allow any Palestinian organization that much firepower. If Mahmoud Abbas had an army, you think that Gaza would be under Hamas control? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/156 "2010-05-13T18:38:12Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Probably not. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Of course the PA under dear old Yassar turned down a very generous deal. The Saudis pointed out such a rejection was “not a mistake, but a crime,” but of course the Israelis have also withdrawn the offer. Do you have a cite for that comment by the Saudi prince? I have looked for a credible source but it is always hearsay rather than reporting. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/157 "2010-05-13T18:54:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Do you have a cite for that comment by the Saudi prince? I have looked for a credible source but it is always hearsay rather than reporting. Nope. I cited it once directly to you. Twice. Once from [mideastweb](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12429378&postcount=104) and once [from the New Yorker.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12429429&postcount=106) Your ad hom denial is rather arbitrary. People citing Bandar’s words aren’t “real” reporting because, we can imagine, real reporting involves citing Bandar’s words. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/158 "2010-05-13T19:01:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So if we were fighting an enemy that wore no uniforms, operated out of Mexico City and used human shields, you really expect us to have an ever better ratio of military to civilian casualties than 1:2? > Can you provide cites of similar wars in dense urban environments with even better ratios? How are we doing in Kandahar? > [@](#): > > So Hamas can no longer maintain control over Gaza through force? > Cite that that too please. OK who do you think is Mexico and who do you think are the drug cartels in this anaolgy because you either think Hamas is both, in which case you might as well declare war or you think hams is Mexico (in which case I am at a loss to identify the drug dealers). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/159 "2010-05-13T19:06:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That is a crazy idea because that robust government would have to have sufficient military and police power to throttle internal dissent from terrorists and Israel isn’t about to allow any Palestinian organization that much firepower. If Mahmoud Abbas had an army, you think that Gaza would be under Hamas control? The problem with the PA is not that it lacked the raw power do do down its opponents, it is that, through its endemic corruption, inefficiency, and contempt for the well-being of the average Palestinian, it lost credibility and thus the ability to rule a united Palestinian proto-nation. Many Palestinains in the end _favoured_ Hamas - because of their social-welfare schemes, and reputation for caring about keeping order. They _won_ democratic elections, defeating Fatah, in 2006. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/160 "2010-05-13T19:10:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not an American - but if mexican “insurgents”, run by the Mexican government (taken over violently by narco-cartels) were randomly firing missiles into Texas, hiding in among the population because in their opinion Texas belongs to them because it was unjustly seized and they wish to drive the current Texans out … what response do you truly, realistically think the US government would have? I don’t think we would do a better job at minimizing civilian casualties. After all the Mexicans are going to be our neighbors after the narco-government fails. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840.md?page=9)