# Israel and Civilian Kills **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840 "2010-05-09T22:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/161 "2010-05-13T19:12:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How are we doing in Kandahar? You’re the one making the claims, aren’t you? The last time this subject came up, you said you had no basis for comparison and had no idea what the causality counts were in recent US wars. Have you found a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/162 "2010-05-13T19:15:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t think we would do a better job at minimizing civilian casualties. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/163 "2010-05-13T19:20:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Your denials are not exactly convincing. The military liaison for a group waging war against another nation chooses to stay with his family even after he’s given warning that he’s going to be targeted, and your response is to say that unless he had his family follow him around he wasn’t using them as human shields. If you know who he is and he is sometimes surrounded by children and he is somtimes NOT surrounded by children, you have some duty to try and kill him when he is NOT surrounded by children, no? > [@](#): > > Non sequitur plus strawman. Taking out command and control (as well as bomb/rocket makers) gives you breathing room. Your argument is nonsensical. We routinely target generals and key military personnel even though, of coruse, others can be promoted. Do you want breathing room or do you want peace? I’m not saying you should stop fighting, I’m saying that your bigger battle is to win hearts and minds. Why is it that every military power thinks that they can beat the other guy into submission while at the same time believing that they themselves could never be beaten into submission? > [@](#): > > You’re free to cite one. > **[Arab Peace Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative)** > > The Arab Peace Initiative (Arabic: مبادرة السلام العربية; Hebrew: יוזמת השלום הערבית), also known as the Saudi Initiative (Arabic: مبادرة السعودية; Hebrew: היוזמה הסעודית), is a 10 sentence proposal for an end to the Arab–Israeli conflict that was endorsed by the Arab League in 2002 at the Beirut Summit and re-endorsed at the 2007 and at the 2017 Arab League summits. The initiative offers normalisation of relations by the Arab world with Israel, in return for a full withdrawal by Israel from t... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/164 "2010-05-13T19:24:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …what? Just looking at the pie chart. > [@](#): > > That claim has already been refuted. The UN did nothing and in fact refrained from creating the state of Israel and the state of Israel’s creation was informed by the war, not the UN. Why are you repeating something that isn’t a fact? Your argument is noone helped Israel fight the war of 1948 (other than by lending materiel support) so the fact that the UN created Israel by resolution didn’t actually do anything. On the contrary, creating Israel on paper is the foundation on which Israel is built. Let me ask you a question. But for things like the Balfour declaration and the UN reolution, do you think Israel would exist today? I agree taht without winning the war of 1948, Israel would not exist today but there was nothing to fight for without the act of the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/165 "2010-05-13T19:28:17Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The Palestinians aren’t a race, OK fine, isn’t it discriminatory(although if I passed a law banning mexicans from gaining citizenship through marriage or place of birth, most people would call it racist but I will settle for discriminatory)? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, the fact that all Palestinians who stayed in Israel now form roughly 1/5 of their population and have full rights and citizenship under the law, but those who have a different nationality are treated differently does that. What security purpose is served by letting a Palestinian marry an Israeli and stay in Israel but not gain citizenship? I still can’t believe you are trying to defend this law rather than admit that Israel is simply wrong about this. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/166 "2010-05-13T19:32:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Just looking at the pie chart. > > Your argument is noone helped Israel fight the war of 1948 (other than by lending materiel support) so the fact that the UN created Israel by resolution didn’t actually do anything. On the contrary, creating Israel on paper is the foundation on which Israel is built. > > Let me ask you a question. But for things like the Balfour declaration and the UN reolution, do you think Israel would exist today? I agree taht without winning the war of 1948, Israel would not exist today but there was nothing to fight for without the act of the UN. Israel, the nation, would exist whether the UN declared it did or not. For years, the UN refused to recognize the seperate existance of Taiwan from China. Taiwan exists, nonetheless. > [@](#): > > Each year since 1992, the ROC has petitioned the UN for entry but has been unsuccessful. > **[Taiwan | Participation in international events and organizations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China#Participation_in_international_events_and_organizations)** > > The ROC was a founding member of United Nations, and held the seat of China on the Security Council and other UN bodies until 1971, when it was expelled by Resolution 2758 and replaced with the PRC as the ROC now has neither official membership nor observer status in the organization. Since 1993, the ROC has petitioned the UN for entry, but its applications have not made it past committee stage. Due to the One China policy, most UN member states, including the United States, do not wish The ROC g... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/167 "2010-05-13T19:39:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Because member of the Arab race aren’t the target? Because people who claim nationality in a hostile nation to Israel are? So you think that the law should allow Palestinians to become Israeli citizens if they renounce their Palestinian citizenship, how about teh children of palestinians and israelis, are they claiming Palestinian nationality? > [@](#): > > As just a very, very basic example, being able to get through checkpoints with Israeli plates. They are already in Israel and they are married to Israelis (or are the children of Israelis), they have Israeli plates don’t they? > [@](#): > > You tell me. How many of the last, say, dozen suicide bombers infiltrated from Lebanon or Syria? Wait a minute. These people are in Israel LEGALLY, they are not infiltrating anything, Israel isn’t trying to expel them, they are just preventing them from voting and . They are married to Israeli citizens, they just can’t become citizens by marriage because they are Palestinian. How does this law prevent suicide bombing? > [@](#): > > While allowing other Arabs to shift the demographic. > I guess we’re back to Israel just being incompetently racist. I don’t think they are not really worried about the millions of Syrian refugees who are trying to implement their right of return. And I don’t think Israel is being incompetent, I think theya re effectively slowing downt he demographic shift by applying special rules to palestinians. > [@](#): > > Israel remains the Jewish state as long as the Law of Return is in effect. But if someone could vote to rescind that law and, say, institute Islam as the official religion of the state? That might just change things. Ah so the purpose of that discriminatory law is in fact to preserve the Jewish nature of israel. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/168 "2010-05-13T19:44:45Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The UN did not in fact “create” Israel - warfare did that - the original UN partition plan being rejected by Israel’s neighbours and the creation of Israel being taken, by them, as a declaration of war. You make a very fine (almost invisible) distinctionwhen you say the UN’s creation of the state of Israel caused the war that resulted in the state of Israel. > [@](#): > > Does Israel commit abuses and excesses? Of course it does. Finally. > [@](#): > > They have no ‘metropolitan’ to ‘go back’ to. More than half of their population is in ancestry, middle eastern anyway (Shephardic or Mizrai). Most of the rest were born there and have no connection whatsoever with Poland or Romania or wherever their grandparents came from. Even symbolically, this excessive and obsessive focus appears to me wrong-headed, as it is based on a bunch of wrong assumptions about who the Israelis _are_. No I think Israelis are Israeli even the Israeli immigrants are Israeli and I have said repeatedly that the only thing worse than millions of palestinian refugees would be millions of palestinian refugees, millions of israeli refugees and a shooting war in the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/169 "2010-05-13T19:55:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative) No. I asked for a viable plan, you returned with an immediate withdrawal allowing Hamas to import unlimited arms and putting them within rocket range of every Israeli citizen. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Just looking at the pie chart. Also no. Your claim was that: > [@](#): > > Its also interesting to note that there are more resolutions against Palestine and the palestinians than against israel. Maybe the UN is picking on the Palestinians. That is fictional. \*The pie chart actually shows that there are more resolutions that mention the words “Palestine” or “Palestinian”. \* > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Your argument is noone helped Israel fight the war of 1948 (other than by lending materiel support) Yet again you are wrong on the facts. The only nation that lended any “material support” was Czechlovakia and even that wasn’t true official policy. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > creating Israel on paper is the foundation on which Israel is built. You’ve had that error refuted too, why are you still using it? The resolution on paper did nothing, wasn’t accepted by the involved parties, did not inform the boundaries, etc… the foundation was self determination. I’ve pointed this out to you before, you are rationalizing to support your narrative. If Israel said “we are declaring independence because God granted this land to us”, would you be claiming that God created Israel? Israel used the UN resolution as a justification? Yes. The UN resolution _did_ anything? No. I’ve asked you several times to point out what the resolution _did_, can you finally tell me something? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But for things like the Balfour declaration And you cite the Balfour Declaration, that Britain reneged on and which _did_ nothing, as another basis. This again shows that your argument is simply wrong. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I agree taht without winning the war of 1948, Israel would not exist today but there was nothing to fight for without the act of the UN. They wouldn’t have wanted self determination or to defend themselves once Britain withdrew? You really believe that? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you think that the law should allow Palestinians to become Israeli citizens if they renounce their Palestinian citizenship You mean like what they already did when they annexed East Jerusalem? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How does this law prevent suicide bombing? How does not giving foreign nationals Israeli license plates maintain security? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > their right of return. Your argument isn’t exactly objective when it privileges the claims of those who didn’t own land on which they were living to a “right” to return to it, especially since all the other people at the same time period who were part of population transfers, from Europe to India, have no such “right”. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/170 "2010-05-13T19:56:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nope. > I cited it once directly to you. Twice. Once from [mideastweb](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12429378&postcount=104) and once [from the New Yorker.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12429429&postcount=106) Your ad hom denial is rather arbitrary. People citing Bandar’s words aren’t “real” reporting because, we can imagine, real reporting involves citing Bandar’s words. Oh, I missed the one from the saudi site. OK so Arafat should have taken that deal when it was offered. Will we look back some day and say that israel should have taken [Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative) ? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/171 "2010-05-13T19:58:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Oh, I missed the one from the saudi site. OK so Arafat should have taken that deal when it was offered. Will we look back some day and say that israel should have taken [Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative) ? Already addressed that. Immediately withdrawing and allowing Hamas to import weapons and get within range of every single Israeli isn’t exactly a plan for “peace”. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/172 "2010-05-13T19:58:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Israel, the nation, would exist whether the UN declared it did or not. > > For years, the UN refused to recognize the seperate existance of Taiwan from China. Taiwan exists, nonetheless. > > [Taiwan - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China#Participation_in_international_events_and_organizations) Israel isn’t Taiwan. Explain to me how Israel would exist withought the groundwork laid by the Uk and the UN? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/173 "2010-05-13T19:59:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re the one making the claims, aren’t you? > The last time this subject came up, you said you had no basis for comparison and had no idea what the causality counts were in recent US wars. Have you found a cite? No I made no claims about the civilian to combatant casualty ratio. Someone made the claim that 2:1 was pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/174 "2010-05-13T20:05:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Israel isn’t Taiwan. Explain to me how Israel would exist withought the groundwork laid by the Uk and the UN? Get this, the regional sovereign would have fallen, the British would have been given a mandate and then withdrawn, and the proto-Israelis would have declared that they wanted self determination and then a war would have been fought that determined the geography of Israel. I know, what’re the odds? And you keep mentioning the UK while ignoring that the UK reneged on its promises to Israel, frustrated the creation of the state of Israel by allowing the Arabs to prepare for war while withdrawing from Israeli territory last, arming those same Arabs and capturing and imprisoning tens of thousands of Jews fleeing for Palestine ever after the UN resolution and, in fact, even after the creation of the state of Israel. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No I made no claims about the civilian to combatant casualty ratio. You have, several times. You’ve claimed that Israel isn’t doing enough to minimize civilian casualties and yet you can’t show any combat, at all, where militants in a dense urban environment use human shields and wear no uniforms that has a beter than 1:2 ratio. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/175 "2010-05-13T20:07:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The problem with the PA is not that it lacked the raw power do do down its opponents, it is that, through its endemic corruption, inefficiency, and contempt for the well-being of the average Palestinian, it lost credibility and thus the ability to rule a united Palestinian proto-nation. > > Many Palestinains in the end _favoured_ Hamas - because of their social-welfare schemes, and reputation for caring about keeping order. They _won_ democratic elections, defeating Fatah, in 2006. Is it any better now? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/176 "2010-05-13T20:08:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You make a very fine (almost invisible) distinctionwhen you say the UN’s creation of the state of Israel caused the war that resulted in the state of Israel. Huh? The UN’s announcement was a mere signal. The end result was decided, as these things usually are, by violence. > [@](#): > > Finally. Again, Huh? When did I ever deny it? > [@](#): > > No I think Israelis are Israeli even the Israeli immigrants are Israeli and I have said repeatedly that the only thing worse than millions of palestinian refugees would be millions of palestinian refugees, millions of israeli refugees and a shooting war in the middle east. It isn’t a comment aimed at you, specifically; rather about the motives of over-emphasis on Israel, generally. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/177 "2010-05-13T20:16:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Israel isn’t Taiwan. Explain to me how Israel would exist withought the groundwork laid by the Uk and the UN? What “groundwork” are you referring to? In the immediate pre-war of independance period, the UK did all it could to avoid and discourage proto-Israeli nationalism, before trowing up their hands, throwing in the towel, and leaving; the UN created a 'partition plan" that was rejected by Israel’s neighbours and never implemented. Certainly, the actions of the UK in signing the Balfour declaration were somewhat significant, but that was a long time in the past by the time of the War of Independance. Any objective read of the situation is that Israel came into being without much in the way of help from any other nation or organization. The example of Taiwan proves that UN “lack of recognition” by no means prevents a nation from, in fact, existing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/178 "2010-05-13T20:22:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No. > I asked for a viable plan, you returned with an immediate withdrawal allowing Hamas to import unlimited arms and putting them within rocket range of every Israeli citizen. Its not viable because you don’t like it and you don’t trust the Palestinians? > [@](#): > > Also no. > Your claim was that: > That is fictional. \*The pie chart actually shows that there are more resolutions that mention the words “Palestine” or “Palestinian”. \* True, merely mentioning Palestine doesn’t mean the resolutions are against Palestine but it doesn’t mean theya re against israel either. I guess the mention doesn’t really mean anything but the focus on the middle east is noted. > [@](#): > > You’ve had that error refuted too, why are you still using it? The resolution on paper did nothing, wasn’t accepted by the involved parties, did not inform the boundaries, etc… the foundation was self determination. I’ve pointed this out to you before, you are rationalizing to support your narrative. > If Israel said “we are declaring independence because God granted this land to us”, would you be claiming that God created Israel? > > Israel used the UN resolution as a justification? Yes. The UN resolution _did_ anything? No. I’ve asked you several times to point out what the resolution _did_, can you finally tell me something? Because history would not have played out as it did if the Uk and the UN did not lay the groundwork. > [@](#): > > They wouldn’t have wanted self determination or to defend themselves once Britain withdrew? You really believe that? I’m saying that there wouldn’t have been anything like a national identity to fight for without the groundwork laid by the UK or the UN. > [@](#): > > You mean like what they already did when they annexed East Jerusalem? The discriminatory law was passed more recently than that. > [@](#): > > How does not giving foreign nationals Israeli license plates maintain security We are talking about people who are either married to or the children of Israeli citizens. > [@](#): > > Your argument isn’t exactly objective when it privileges the claims of those who didn’t own land on which they were living to a “right” to return to it, especially since all the other people at the same time period who were part of population transfers, from Europe to India, have no such “right”. Did you even look at the population distributions at 1948? Israel was going to end up with 45% palestinian population and Palestine was going to end up with 99% Palestinian population. More land was owned by Palestinains than jews (by far) and once again you are saying that because some people did bad stuff to jews, Jews get to do bad stuff to Palestinians. Did Europe take in the Palestinians? If not then you stole from Peter because Paul stole from you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/179 "2010-05-13T20:24:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Already addressed that. Immediately withdrawing and allowing Hamas to import weapons and get within range of every single Israeli isn’t exactly a plan for “peace”. What sort of two state plan would NOT allow Hamas to do what you say? I mean by that reckoning, the only acceptable solution is either the status quo or a demilitarized state without sovereign power that is policed by Israel to make sure they stay demilitarized. Would you take that deal if it was offered to Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840/180 "2010-05-13T20:25:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Is it any better now? The PA is demoralized and appears more or less impotent - it seems to fear making any change, because change is likely to be for the worse; it cannot make concessions, without appearing weak. The situation of the Gazans under Hamas has, of course, gone from bad to worse. The lesson here is that the mere fact that an organization isn’t corrupt, and provides good social services, etc. does not mean you should support it. In Israel, meanwhile, those advocating making unilateral concessions in exchange for peace have been undercut and discredited by events. Making unilateral concessions appears to have resulted in the situation in Gaza - it emboldened Hamas and led to further violence; Israeli peace initiatives with the PA led nowhere, as the PA appears to insist on conditions which no Israeli can accept (right of return, loss of Jerusalem). In history, how many sides that have _lost_ a conflict have insisted that the _victors_ hand over their freaking _capital city_? 😃 This has resulted in the triumph of hardcore rejectionists like Bibi, who will never I think agree to anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-civilian-kills/538840.md?page=10)