# Israel and the USA-Why Does This Farce Continue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387 "2010-03-13T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/201 "2010-03-16T01:05:44Z")
The UN voted to partition Palestine in 1947. The British relinquished their mandate after this, allowing the sorry collection of terrorists, ethnic cleaners and mass murderers who became Israel’s leaders to take over control, handing them victory in their long terrorist campaign to attain their own state. So my question is if it was OK for the Israelis to use terrorism and ongoing killing as part of theirattempts to gain their own state, if the international community dealt with them and recognised them despite the ongoing terrorism, why isn’t it OK for them to do the same thing now with the Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/202 "2010-03-16T02:26:10Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > And there’s a difference between what Israel will accept and what the settlers will accept. Even if true, so what? They made a choice, and they can make other choices if the situation changes. > [@](#): > > The settlers are a minority with extremist views. Yet they have government support, even encouragement, anyway, including the latest “authorizations”. How does that work? > [@](#): > > Am I required to believe that Yasser Arafat wasn’t a murderous bastard? Because the evidence suggests he was. The evidence is that Begin was, too. But he was able to make peace anyway. **Finn** , are you content to let your failure to reply to **Dick** just speak for itself? It already has, you know. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/203 "2010-03-16T02:36:04Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] The UN voted to partition Palestine in 1947. The British relinquished their mandate after this, allowing the sorry collection of terrorists, ethnic cleaners and mass murderers who became Israel’s leaders to take over control, handing them victory in their long terrorist campaign to attain their own state. So my question is if it was OK for the Israelis to use terrorism and ongoing killing as part of theirattempts to gain their own state, if the international community dealt with them and recognised them despite the ongoing terrorism, why isn’t it OK for them to do the same thing now with the Palestinians? [/QUOTE] There simply isn’t enough contempt in the world for this level of spin…especially since I know you SHOULD know better than this, seeing as how you participate in these types of threads all the time. Some ignorance simply can’t be fought, but this borders on something nastier than simple ignorance. -XT ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/204 "2010-03-16T02:38:50Z")
See what I mean about the need for constant fact-checking? Of course, the vast majority of actions taken by the Haganah were not terrorist actions and Irgun was disolved (and in fact, their most famous “terrorist” action, the bombing of the King David Hotel, was not terrorism at all as it targeted a valid military target). In point of fact, Irgun and the Haganah were formed to defend Jews from the Arab attacks that had begun in the 20’s, and later on as the Palestinian leadership was coopted via murder and intimidation by the Grand Mufti, an ally of the Nazis and a partial architect of the Final Solution. It was also during this time that the Haganah and Irgun were instrumental in protecting Jewish civilians who the British was busily disarming. Irgun in particular became an offensive rather than defensive organization due to Arab attacks upon Jewish civilian population centers. But of course, Dick would prefer to paint this as a long terrorist plan to overthrow the British. Nor did the British hand the proto-Israelis victory, in point of fact they waited until the last minute to clear out, all the while allowing the Arabs to arm and preventing the nascent Israeli state from defending themselves. And then British officers helped lead the attempt to commit genocide upon the nascent Israeli state. Earlier, Arab terrorism starting as early as the 20’s also was rewarded by the British as they instituted the racist White Paper which prevented Jewish immigration while allowing Arab immigration. Dick’s ahistorical claims aside, the question then becomes why do people expect the Palestinians to negotiate for an agreement rather than targeting civilians and murdering them. The answer is fairly simple. Then again, some people when faced with the fact that Hezbollah or Hamas are racist and genocidal, still support them, so nothing much can be assumed in these sorts of things. Oh and, Elvis? Stop playing games please. I responded to Dick’s silly question when Lucy asked it and then later on when I elaborated when talking to Captain Amazing. I’m sure that I am undone that I won’t answer the same question a third time. Yeeps. You just crow about how much of a victory it is and stop mentioning it, eh? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/205 "2010-03-16T02:39:41Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Finn, are you content to let your failure to reply to Dick just speak for itself? It already has, you know. [/QUOTE] 😛 Why should he? How many times does he have to track over this same tired bullshit? How many times does he have to attempt to show the real, historical record, only to have the same stupid, tired crap thrown back up again as if it’s fresh and new? Frankly, were I he, I’d say fuck it…you guys can remain ignorant. As I said, some ignorance simply can’t be fought, and after a while it’s not worth continuing to repeat facts in the face of this level of militant ignorance. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/206 "2010-03-16T02:50:14Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > There simply isn’t enough contempt in the world for this level of spin…especially since I know you SHOULD know better than this, seeing as how you participate in these types of threads all the time. Some ignorance simply can’t be fought, but this borders on something nastier than simple ignorance. > > -XT What’s incorrect about it? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/207 "2010-03-16T02:52:12Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > See what I mean about the need for constant fact-checking? > > Of course, the vast majority of actions taken by the Haganah were not terrorist actions and Irgun was disolved (and in fact, their most famous “terrorist” action, the bombing of the King David Hotel, was not terrorism at all as it targeted a valid military target). In point of fact, Irgun and the Haganah were formed to defend Jews from the Arab attacks that had begun in the 20’s, and later on as the Palestinian leadership was coopted via murder and intimidation by the Grand Mufti, an ally of the Nazis and a partial architect of the Final Solution. It was also during this time that the Haganah and Irgun were instrumental in protecting Jewish civilians who the British was busily disarming. Irgun in particular became an offensive rather than defensive organization due to Arab attacks upon Jewish civilian population centers. > > But of course, Dick would prefer to paint this as a long terrorist plan to overthrow the British. > > Nor did the British hand the proto-Israelis victory, in point of fact they waited until the last minute to clear out, all the while allowing the Arabs to arm and preventing the nascent Israeli state from defending themselves. And then British officers helped lead the attempt to commit genocide upon the nascent Israeli state. Earlier, Arab terrorism starting as early as the 20’s also was rewarded by the British as they instituted the racist White Paper which prevented Jewish immigration while allowing Arab immigration. > > Dick’s ahistorical claims aside, the question then becomes why do people expect the Palestinians to negotiate for an agreement rather than targeting civilians and murdering them. The answer is fairly simple. Then again, some people when faced with the fact that Hezbollah or Hamas are racist and genocidal, still support them, so nothing much can be assumed in these sorts of things. > > Oh and, Elvis? Stop playing games please. I responded to Dick’s silly question when Lucy asked it and then later on when I elaborated when talking to Captain Amazing. I’m sure that I am undone that I won’t answer the same question a third time. Yeeps. > You just crow about how much of a victory it is and stop mentioning it, eh? There was an ongoing terrorist campaign by various Jewish terrorist groups from the 1930s onwards, including an attempt by one Jewish terrorist group to make an alliance with the Nazis, although Adolf told them to fuck off. So in light of the Jewish terrorism that was ongoing during the UN negotiations over partition, should the UN have declared that there could be no negotiations with terrorists or surrender to terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/208 "2010-03-16T02:57:15Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] What’s incorrect about it? [/QUOTE] The malicious spin, perhaps? The disregard for the context and history? -XT ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/209 "2010-03-16T02:57:24Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why should he? How many times does he have to track over this same tired bullshit? N+1 evidently 😉 I can admit that I wasn’t 100% clear when I first posted. Then Lucy tried to jump on what he saw as a glaring omission, and I clarified, at length, that I was using the word “ongoing” to describe violence that was not sporadic or circumstantial but would continue. > [@](#): > > it’s like saying that if someone is bombing you and is going to keep bombing you (you know, ongoing violence) that a peace treaty is peace is name only and war in fact (because, ya know, they keep bombing you). This is kinda the obvious point that some folks are doing their best to avoid. Violence means there is no peace, ongoing violence means that any peace treaty is not worth the paper it’s written on, because no matter who signs what the violence will go on. I elaborated on this even more when I posted to Captain Amazing: > [@](#): > > Any peace treaty reached while there is still ongoing violence is not anything more than mere words, because if the violence is ongoing a declaration of peace is the same as a declaration of virginity in the middle of a porno. Only if the violence stops and is not ongoing can there be an actual peace. > [@xtisme](#): > > it’s not worth continuing to repeat facts in the face of this level of militant ignorance. Of course. I spend some time correcting certain factual errors, but, meh. Certain arguments are constructed the way they are because they reinforce a pre-determined position, not because they shine light on facts. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/210 "2010-03-16T03:05:00Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Of course. I spend some time correcting certain factual errors, but, meh. Certain arguments are constructed the way they are because they reinforce a pre-determined position, not because they shine light on facts. [/QUOTE] Better you than me, 'mano. I know for a fact that you’ve explained (with cites) all this stuff to these exact same people in multiple threads…and yet, they bring up the same tired crap over and over again. [QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] The UN voted to partition Palestine in 1947. The British relinquished their mandate after this, allowing the sorry collection of terrorists, ethnic cleaners and mass murderers who became Israel’s leaders to take over control, handing them victory in their long terrorist campaign to attain their own state. So my question is if it was OK for the Israelis to use terrorism and ongoing killing as part of theirattempts to gain their own state, if the international community dealt with them and recognised them despite the ongoing terrorism, why isn’t it OK for them to do the same thing now with the Palestinians? [/QUOTE] I mean, just quickly parsing this. He glosses over the reasons for the partition, the historical context that said partition took place in, the reasons the Brits were glad to wash their hands of the place (and how the got it initially), the fact that while Israel agreed to the partition terms the Palestinian’s did not, the terrorism, pogroms and violence of both sides historically, but especially of the Arab’s (and everyone else) AGAINST the Jews during much of the early 20th century (and before), and the REASONS why the Jews eventually began to reply in kind and resort to terrorism themselves, etc etc, blah blah blah…and all this ignorance and spin is in one freaking paragraph. Unreal. -XT ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/211 "2010-03-16T03:08:37Z")
Fact checking is never done. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > There was an ongoing terrorist campaign by various Jewish terrorist groups from the 1930s onwards As already pointed out, you are distorting the actual historical record and, unsurprisingly, portraying Jewish responses to Palestinian terrorism and later Nazi-aligned Palestinian terrorism as a terrorist campaign to claim a state. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > including an attempt by one Jewish terrorist group to make an alliance with the Nazis, Of course, this is a repeated mistake of yours. I guess you forgot the last time I set you straight. [ > [@](#): > > Yours is a typical ploy, and rather predictable. > > You seek to equivocate “tried to offer the Nazis something in order to allow a percentage of European Jews to avoid being butchered.” with “ally with the Nazis”. Much like you tried to change “fled a war raging all around them” to the fiction of “driven off at gunpoint!!!”. No, the Jewish attempt to saves Jews from the Nazi program of extermination is not at all equivalent with standard military alliances, nor is it equivalent with the Mufti’s actual alliance with the Nazis for the purpose of killing Jews. ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11798507&highlight=alliance#post11798507](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11798507&highlight=alliance#post11798507)) Even your mistake has, nestled within is gooey core, yet another factual error. The Transfer Agreement was, in fact, a real agreement and not one that the Nazis brushed off. It saved the lives of roughly 60,000 Jews as well as significant Jewish assets from the Nazis. Nor, of course, was it “terrorists” who made the agreement on the proto-Isrealis’ side, but I’m sure that most folks already realized that. Edit: > [@xtisme](#): > > I mean, just quickly parsing this. He glosses over the reasons for the partition, the historical context that said partition took place in, the reasons the Brits were glad to wash their hands of the place (and how the got it initially), the fact that while Israel agreed to the partition terms the Palestinian’s did not, the terrorism, pogroms and violence of both sides historically, but especially of the Arab’s (and everyone else) AGAINST the Jews during much of the early 20th century (and before), and the REASONS why the Jews eventually began to reply in kind and resort to terrorism themselves, etc etc, blah blah blah…and all this ignorance and spin is in one freaking paragraph. Unreal. Quite the contrary, it’s to be expected. Context, facts, causality and a logical analysis of certain facts are anathema to a narrative that cannot stand on its own. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and some narratives flourish in dark places. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/212 "2010-03-16T04:12:13Z")
There is no argument less convincing that the declaration that one’s own are freedom fighters, and the other guys are terrorists. Just as vengeance is the least acceptable motive. Our enemies have no respect for human life, our enemies never do. Its possible, I suppose, that one side of this argument is wholly factual, and the other nothing but malicious lies, but experience suggests it just ain’t so. And time spent arguing how this horror began takes attention from how to stop it. I humbly submit that that is the only question worth our attention. Well, OK, not “humbly”. Close enough. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/213 "2010-03-16T04:40:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There is no argument less convincing that the declaration that one’s own are freedom fighters, and the other guys are terrorists. Well, there are always individual differences in effects and circumstances of attacks, and I think it can be argued that some guerrilla campaigns count as “more terrorist” or “less terrorist” than others. But I don’t see how the Jewish independence struggle in Palestine can fully escape the label of “terrorism” [if their leaders themselves used that term to describe a certain branch of their activities](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah) (and this is Wiki, so I’m not vouching for its total accuracy, but it looks fairly factual AFAICT: > [@](#): > > After the 1920 Arab riots and 1921 Jaffa riots, the Jewish leadership in Palestine believed that the British […] had no desire to confront local Arab gangs which frequently attacked Palestinian Jews. Believing that they could not rely on the British administration for protection from these gangs, the Jewish leadership created the Haganah to protect Jewish farms and Kibbutzim. […] > > Many Haganah fighters objected to the official policy of havlagah (restraint) that Jewish political leaders (who had become increasingly controlling of the Haganah) had imposed on the militia. […] \*n 1931, the most militant elements of the Haganah splintered off and formed the Irgun […] In 1940, the Irgun also split over the issue of whether or not to attack the British during World War II and their off-shoot became known as the “Lehi” […] > > [T]he Haganah, Irgun and the Lehi formed the Hebrew Resistance Movement. Within this new framework, the three groups had different functions, which served to drive the British out of Palestine and create a Jewish state. As Menachem Begin stated in a 1944 meeting: “In fact, there is a division of roles; one organization advocates individual terrorism (Lehi), the other conducts sporadic military operations (Irgun) and there is a third organization which prepares itself to throw its final weight in the decisive war.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/214 "2010-03-16T05:03:46Z")
Because the issue isn’t whether or not some factions undertook terrorist actions, but the claim that the entire campaign was one of terrorism to earn a Jewish state. It wasn’t. You neglected to quote, in fact, how the Haganah worked with the British in order to neutralize Irgun at one point. The (uncited) wiki claim is also wrong that the three groups organized to drive the British out of the territory. It wasn’t. Begin, who the quote is from, did not set policy outside his faction. Nor would he ascend to a major electoral victory until nearly three decades after '48. In further point of fact, it was the Jewish Agency which was the official governing body and which founded the Haganah (not Irgun) and it did not seek to overthrow the British at all, but wanted British _cooperation_ after the war. [ > [@](#): > > The Jewish Agency and Zionist Executive believed that British and world reaction to the assassination of Lord Moyne could jeopardize cooperation after the war, that had been hinted at by the British, and might endanger the Jewish Yishuv if they came to be perceived as enemies of Britain and the allies. Therefore they embarked on a campaign against the Lehi and Irgun, known in Hebrew as the “Sezon” (“Season”). Members of the underground were to be ostracized. Leaders were caught by the Haganah, interrogated and sometimes tortured, and about a thousand persons were turned over to the British. ]([Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)](http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm)) After ‘45 the Haganah (remember, the official creation of the Jews’ official governing body) did not attempt to drive the British out, but did attempt to get Jewish refugees in. The _opponents_ of the Haganah attempted to drive the British out. > [@](#): > > United Resistance - In the summer of 1945, the Labor party came to power in Great Britain. They had promised that they would reverse the British White Paper and would support a Jewish state in Palestine. However, they presently reneged on their promise, and continued and redoubled efforts to stop Jewish immigration. The Haganah attempted to bring immigrants into Palestine illegally. The rival Zionist underground groups now united, and all of them, in particular the Irgun and Lehi (“Stern gang”) dissident terrorist groups, used force to try to drive the British out of Palestine. This included bombing of trains, train stations, an officers club and British headquarters in the King David Hotel, as well as kidnapping and murder of British personnel. In Britain, newspapers and politicians began to demand that the government settle the conflict and stop endangering the lives of British troops. Further, despite Dick’s ahistorical errors, the British did not then ‘reward’ anybody. They declared the area ungovernable (after preventing Jewish immigration and keeping Jewish refugees from the Nazis in detention camps rather than letting them immigrate, all at the Arabs’ urging) and handed the matter over to the UN. It was the UN, then, that drew up the partition plan along ethnic majority lines. > [@](#): > > The United Nations Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The commission called for Jerusalem to be put under international administration The UN General Assembly adopted this plan on Nov. 29, 1947 as UN Resolution (GA 181), owing to support of both the US and the Soviet Union, and in particular, the personal support of US President Harry S. Truman. Many factors contributed to Truman’s decision to support partition, including domestic politics and intense Zionist lobbying, no doubt. Truman wrote in his diary, however, “I think the proper thing to do, and the thing I have been doing, is to do what I think is right and let them all go to hell.” > > The Jews accepted the UN decision, but the Arabs rejected it. The resolution divided the land into two approximately equal portions in a complicated scheme with zig-zag borders (see map at right and see Partition Map and detailed partition map of UNSCOP Proposal and final map: UN Palestine Partition Plan Map - 1947). The intention was an economic union between the two states with open borders. At the time of partition, slightly less than half the land in all of Palestine was owned by Arabs, slightly less than half was “crown lands” belonging to the state, and about 8% was owned by Jews or the Jewish Agency. There were about 600,000 Jews in Palestine, almost all living in the areas allotted to the Jewish state or in the internationalized zone of Jerusalem, and about 1.2 million Arabs. The allocation of land by Resolution 181 was intended to produce two areas with Jewish and Arab majorities respectively. Jerusalem and environs were to be internationalized. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/215 "2010-03-16T06:02:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Even if true, so what? They made a choice, and they can make other choices if the situation changes. You’re missing my point. The opinion of the settlers is different than the opinion of the standard Israeli. > [@](#): > > Yet they have government support, even encouragement, anyway, including the latest “authorizations”. How does that work? Israel is a parliamentary democracy that elects its Knesset (its Parliament) by a party list with proportional representation. If a party gets 10% of the vote, it gets 10% of the seats in the Knesset. Now, there are traditionally two, but now three, main political parties in Israel; Likud, which is a center-right party, that favors less government control over the economy, Kadima, a center party that primarily split off from Likud over the issue of the pull out from Gaza…Kadima supported it and Likud opposed it, and Labour, a center-left party that’s suffered some major political reverses recently. Because of the proportional representation, none of the major governing powers can generally get a majority in the Knesset, which means, in order to govern, they need to enter into coalitions, and the parties that the major parties enter into coalitions with tend to be Religious Zionist parties that support further settlement, because they’re “easy” coalition partners; the major parties just have to promise to continue authorizing settlements and promise not to cut welfare for religious students, and the coalition members fall in line. So, expanding settlements, which only a minority of Israelis strongly support, often becomes government policy because of structural things in the Israeli government. > [@](#): > > The evidence is that Begin was, too. But he was able to make peace anyway. That’s not a good comparison. Begin abandoned terrorism in 1948. He was then pretty much in the political wilderness, with his political party a joke, until he managed to get a minister seat in 1967, So, he was damaged goods for 19 years after he abandoned terrorism, largely because of his actions during the War for Independence. Mapai was able to successfully portray him as an extremist demagogue. Ben Gurion made the famous quote that he would enter into coalition with any other party, but that any government that he was in would be “without Herut (Begin’s party) or Maki (the Communists)”. His own party even tried to overthrow him. The people who were successful in Israeli politics in the early years were those who stayed away from terrorism and extremism…men like Ben Gurion. It wasn’t the same with Arafat…he supported terrorism and was in charge of the Palestinians until his death. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/216 "2010-03-16T07:42:46Z")
Is it especially commendable to give up a terrorist/freedom fighter campaign when you win? I always thought that was pretty much expected. Has any such insurrectionist leader like Arafat, or Patrick Henry, said “OK, we’re gonna give this one real good try, and if we don’t make it, we quit.”? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/217 "2010-03-16T09:06:02Z")
The Palestinians just want to destroy the freedom of Israeli’s, they hate freedom you see, they just want to oppress and deny Israel peace. From their 4th generation, stateless hovels. As before, nothing matters to Israel other than the security of the State, and then the security of the individual - a Palestinian State would impinge on both and must forever be denied. That is never, ever going to change. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/218 "2010-03-16T11:50:59Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You can answer this any time now. These people we are talking about like to fight. They fight like terrorists. I think it would be impossible for them not to fight as it seems to be something they do culturally. It may seem strange to an American that arguing all the time rather then finding a peaceful middle ground is their norm. Can you ever peacefully negotiate with a terrorist? NO. Still we feel we must try and it is a big waste of time and energy. If they enjoy it and they have been doing it for centuries who are we to tell them to play nice? If blowing themselves up is something they enjoy doing do we really think we are going to get them to change? I say let them fight each other and stay out of it. Are we bringing their wrath upon ourselves on purpose as an excuse to get what we really want? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/219 "2010-03-16T12:51:40Z")
[US envoy cancels Mideast trip, Israel feud deepens](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians) > [@](#): > > Washington notified Israel early Tuesday that envoy George Mitchell had put off his trip indefinitely. Mitchell had planned on coming to wrap up preparations for relaunching Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. But now it’s not clear when the indirect talks, to be mediated by Mitchell, will begin. This is win win. Israel doesn’t have to talk to any Palestinians, and American taxpayers save the cost of Mitchell’s flight. We should look for more such mutually agreeable cost cutting measures. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/220 "2010-03-16T13:04:30Z")
Well sure. Until the Israelis manage to get involved in another war and ask us to bail them out. Again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=12)