# Israel and the USA-Why Does This Farce Continue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387 "2010-03-13T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/241 "2010-03-16T17:05:41Z")
[QUOTE=wmfellows] Irgun and the like did in fact target Arab civilians, which cumulated in the Deir Yassine massacre of more than a hundred simple villagers, including women and children. [/QUOTE] Yes they did…though as you undoubtedly know, the situation was complex and also confused. This was in the opening stages of the war, just after the Palestinian’s and their allies rejected the the partition plan and decided on war. They had cut off (and attacked) several Jewish communities in those opening stages, and this war part of the Jewish counter attack. There is dispute as to the level of resistance and what exactly transpired there, as well as the exact extent of the causalities. However, leaving all that aside, and leaving aside that Irgun and Lehi Zionist (i.e. ‘and the like’) were more rabid factions within the entire set of the Jewish fighting force, here’s the thing…the Jews publicly disavowed the actions of both groups in this massacre. While such things happen in war, the Jews (and later Israel) strove to at least try and minimize such things. By and large their various military campaigns did NOT result in the whole sale targeting or the deliberate slaughter of civilians. It’s kind of hard to say the same thing about the Palestinian’s, either during this same time period, previous times, or today. Here is a [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) article on the massacre wmfellows is talking about, for anyone interested who doesn’t know about it. It wasn’t a high point in Jewish history, to be sure. -XT ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/242 "2010-03-16T17:06:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, but WW II was no more about ending the genocide than it was about eventually reinvigorating West German auto industries. It’s not accurate to talk about WW II as if it was about ending genocide. > > Many things are amazing if you’ve never actually studied the facts, I suppose. Why don’t you describe the help you claim that other nations (other than the very limited Czech aid which I already pointed out), actually rendered? > > I suggest you read The Pledge, it should really fight a lot of your ignorance on this topic. > > Kim, check your PM’s. and > [@Kimstu](#): > > I think he means [the book by Leonard Slater](http://www.amazon.com/Pledge-Leonard-Slater/dp/0595092977). Obviously, I can’t get, and read that book quickly enough for this thread to still be up and running. So, what is the basic premise of The Pledge? Am I ignorant? I may be. Still, I don’t buy into the “they are completely wrong and they suck but we are always right and are perfect”. I know better than that. I “get” it that Israel and the israelis have a right to exist, a right to live. I “get” that they have a right to protect themselves from attack. On the other hand, terrorists suck. I don’t care if they are Irgun or PLO, terrorists suck. When it comes to terrorist acts, BOTH sides have been guilty and I don’t care how anyone tries to whitewash it, terrorism is terrorism. I have a question - the people who are displaced, or (as I described it) crowded out - do they receive any sort of compensation for this? Is there any sort of “eminent domain”, like we have here? Do they get moved and FAIRLY reimbursed for their trouble, or are they just thrown out? Finally, what is the point of creating MORE settlements, if you know that is one of the root causes of the trouble? Is Palestine considered a state, like New York or Minnesota, or is it a state, as in “a separate sovereign state”? If it is to be considered a separate autonomous sovereign state, then an incursion of foreign nationals, backed up by a foreign military, would be considered an act of war, an invasion? If, on the other hand, it is a New York/New jersey state that is part of Israel, wouldn’t they be entitled to representation? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/243 "2010-03-16T17:07:01Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Well, that captures the Israeli view. No, actually it captures the truth. Go figure! But good attempt to spin it away on your part. The points I mentioned are all verifiable facts. The British disarmed the Jews, they did not disarm the Arabs. They left areas under Arab control first, and kept control over the disarmed Jewish population till the last possible moment. They did not institute a partition, they simply left in a situation where it was figured that the Arabs would slaughter the Jews. And British officers helped lead that campaign. I can see why you’d prefer to handwave away the facts though. > [@wmfellows](#): > > And? > The Mandate had a supposed obligation to serve the interests of the then extent population, and there is certainly no moral obligation on the British Mandate to promote Jewish interest over the Arabs of the time[…] There was an obligation to serve displaced Europeans in Europe, period. No different than say if the Zionists had decided they wanted Uganda or Kenya after all, and the bloody Kikuyu would just have to get out of the way. Yet more denial of the facts, spin and handwaving from you. Just give it up please. And quit the turnspeak. If you’re going to voice counterfactual, spinfilled nonsense, don’t then pretend that the facts are the real problem. They’re not. Your narrative is. For instance, let’s count the fictions and distortions you just used, shall we? You’re pretending that Jewish immigration was somehow “against the Arab interests” at the time. This is false, as the facts show that Jewish immigration actually improved the quality of life for everybody in the region. You pretend that Jewish immigration displaced Arabs. This is false, as the facts show that Jewish immigration did not displace the Arab population and, in fact, caused massive Arab immigration. And, spinning like a top, you claim that giving Jews safe haven in a settlement zone that the British had already promised them would have somehow been wrong, but re-imprisoning them in the very concentration camps they’d been in was somehow in service of Europe. Bang up job there wm. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/244 "2010-03-16T17:07:50Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So how did a discussion of what is currently happening devolve into a discussion of who-shot-John fifty years ago? It’s by way of explaining how “our” terrorism is excusable and even noble because in a just cause, and “their” terrorism is because they’re simply evil to the core and they deserve whatever “we” can do to them in return. Nothing particularly different about this situation, IOW. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/245 "2010-03-16T17:12:15Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So how did a discussion of what is currently happening devolve into a discussion of who-shot-John fifty years ago? Is that in any way important? I heard all these same arguments when I was an undergrad. It’s SOP. Apparently it’s part of healthy family relations to [avoid current issues](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/world/middleeast/16mideast.html?src=me): > [@](#): > > “Let’s cut the family fighting,” said Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, independent of Connecticut. “It’s unnecessary; it’s destructive of our shared national interest. It’s time to lower voices, to get over the family feud between the U.S. and Israel. It just doesn’t serve anybody’s interests but our enemies’.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/246 "2010-03-16T17:12:31Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Obviously, I can’t get, and read that book quickly enough for this thread to still be up and running. So, what is the basic premise of The Pledge? Am I ignorant? I may be. Yes, you are without a doubt. And you have yet to provide proof (the burden of proof is on you, remember) that other nations helped found Israel. I’ve pointed to the limited Czech involvement. The fact is that, other than that, there was no national support from anybody, and the support Israel did get was from proto-Israeli operatives and sympathizers largely in the US and Canada who were private citizens. So yes, they did indeed do it all on their own. And yes, it is amazing. > [@SteveG1](#): > > Still, I don’t buy into the “they are completely wrong and they suck but we are always right and are perfect”. > I know better than that. I also know better than to let that slip, since your original claim was that Israel had international aid in getting set up (specifically, that the US helped. It did not) and nobody, anywhere, has claimed that one side is completely wrong and sucks but the other is always right and perfect. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/247 "2010-03-16T17:13:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Oh boy, let’s. You are again Actually you two seem like mirror images, given this: And again, unsurprisingly, you’re attempting to ignore the Grand Mufti’s help in designing the Final Solution and alliance with the Nazis [/quote] So the fairly pitiful character of the Grand Mufti, at best a side-act used by the Germans as a thorn in the British side (not even a particularly good one) to draw away troops is now “designing” the final solution with the Nazis? (And charming you abstract away from those who opposed him like his own cousin) I’d rather say you deserve, your mutual relationship with fact and history seem to be quite similar, if reversed in side. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/248 "2010-03-16T17:13:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Oh boy, let’s. You are again (gee, I wonder why?) failing to mention that the groups like the Haganah were formed to defend against Palestinian terrorism, that the Irgun split because of continued Palestinian terrorism, and that the Palestinian terrorist leadership was, in fact, allied with the Nazis to perpetrate a campaign of genocide. > > This is unsurprising. > Next to that, you are trying to conflate it with a splinter of a splinter group with, at most, fewer than a hundred members and who, rather than seeking a military alliance with the Nazis (as the Palestinans had towards the end of exterminating the Jews), offered to (keep) attacking the British in the Mandate territories in order to save Jewish lives from Nazi butchery. > > Ah, the claims you make, Dick. > Speaking of which, I really can’t agree with you more, people should look at your links. They will note, for instance, the huge swaths of citation-free text. For most people, the big ol “citation needed” is a clue that there’s no verification for the claim. They will also note that the link to the “ankara document” goes to a page with no text, at all. Your own cite points out that the document was most likely a forgery or, at best, a second hand re-writing from memory of an oral conversation. At very best, you have a document, produced by German Intelligence itself, that is, at best, of questionable veracity. > > The fact is there is no such proof, the document was likely a forgery, and even if it wasn’t all that it proves is that fewer than 100 people in all of Mandate territory tried to trade attacks on the British for the Nazis sparing Jewish lives and not committing genocide in Israel if they won the war. Your claims are laughable. What, less than 100 people were going to go on a rampage and tilt the war in the Nazis’ favor? > > And again, unsurprisingly, you’re attempting to ignore the Grand Mufti’s help in designing the Final Solution and alliance with the Nazis for the purpose of committing genocide and focusing (exclusively) on less than 100 people who may or may not have sent a letter that said they’d keep attacking the British if the Nazis allowed some Jews to live. > > Same old. Same old. So the majority ethnic group of the land attacking a minority group because they’re growing in numbers and have a stated aim to set up their own state is “terrorism”? Because that goes both ways now, doesn’t it? As far as the Jewish terrorists trying to make alliances with the Nazis, I’m happy to let the historical record speak for me. I would have thought you’d be the last person to apologise for any Jews making common cause with Nazis, but there you have it. And you still haven’t ansered my question. If it was OK for the Israelis to use terrorism and ongoing killing as part of theirattempts to gain their own state, if the international community dealt with them and recognised them despite the ongoing terrorism, why isn’t it OK for them to do the same thing now with the Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/249 "2010-03-16T17:14:50Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > It’s SOP. Damn that SOP, damn it! Why, those clever Zionist apologists deliberately diverted this thread by bringing up history and, oh, wait, no, that was Dick who started talking about Israel being founded by a terrorist campaign to claim land from the British. I guess he’s a Zionist operative in disguise. Like a Transformer, only more Zionisty. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/250 "2010-03-16T17:21:26Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, actually it captures the truth. Go figure! Your reply does indeed do wonders to illustrate your objectivity. > [@](#): > > The British disarmed the Jews, they did not disarm the Arabs. They left areas under Arab control first, and kept control over the disarmed Jewish population till the last possible moment. They did not institute a partition, they simply left in a situation where it was figured that the Arabs would slaughter the Jews. And British officers helped lead that campaign. Libellous distortions, charming your hatred of the British. But I don’t see much point in arguing with you, given your habits. > [@](#): > > I can see why you’d prefer to handwave away the facts though. Amusing, nevertheless, that charming American phrase about pigs and mud comes to mind. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s by way of explaining how “our” terrorism is excusable and even noble because in a just cause, and “their” terrorism is because they’re simply evil to the core and they deserve whatever “we” can do to them in return. > > Nothing particularly different about this situation, IOW. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/251 "2010-03-16T17:23:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, you are without a doubt. And you have yet to provide proof (the burden of proof is on you, remember) that other nations helped found Israel. I’ve pointed to the limited Czech involvement. The fact is that, other than that, there was no national support from anybody, and the support Israel did get was from proto-Israeli operatives and sympathizers largely in the US and Canada who were private citizens. So yes, they did indeed do it all on their own. And yes, it is amazing. > > I also know better than to let that slip, since your original claim was that Israel had international aid in getting set up (specifically, that the US helped. It did not) and nobody, anywhere, has claimed that one side is completely wrong and sucks but the other is always right and perfect. I will concede that I was misinformed, and yes, it was an amazing accomplishment, against impossible odds. You will notice that I agreed with the basic right of Israel to exist, both as individuals and as a state. But I also asked in my later post, what happens to those who are displaced by these settlements, and how does it make sense to continue making settlements, if that is the root of the current problems. I also asked, in perhaps a poorly written way, about the legal implications. What happens to those who get moved or displaced? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/252 "2010-03-16T17:24:29Z")
I see you’ve gone from spin to simply saying whatever comes to mind. Just quit it wm. If you’re not going to make sure your posts are factual then save us the time of reading them please. > [@wmfellows](#): > > So the fairly pitiful character of the Grand Mufti, at best a side-act used by the Germans as a thorn in the British side (not even a particularly good one) to draw away troops is now “designing” the final solution with the Nazis? Seriously, how hard is it not to post from a position of utter ignorance wm? The Mufti, far from being a German side-act, was in point of fact, guilty of crafting/instigating the Arab Riots against the Jews as early as the 1920’s. On his own, hardly at the German’s bidding. Further, it was these riots that, in large part, led to the British limiting Jewish immigration while allowing Arab immigration (up to the point of re-imprisoning Holocaust survivors in the very camps they had been liberated from). Also, contrary to your fiction, it was the British who appointed him Grand Mufti of Jersualem for life. Whoopsie. And of course your disbelief that he helped design the Final Solution is based on nothing other than you having no idea what the actual history is. Dieter Wisliceny, one of Eichman’s deputes, [testified that:](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dieter_Wisliceny) > [@](#): > > The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. … He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz. This is totally in accord with what we know about the Nazis and the Arab powers of the time. [ > [@](#): > > Separately, recently published research by two Stuttgart-based historians, Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers, claims that Hitler had worked out plans to extend the Holocaust to the Middle East, and that the Nazis had forged an alliance with Arab nationalists who wanted to drive the Jewish refugees out of Palestine – a murderous version of German-Arab friendship founded on common hatred of Jews. Jews living in the Middle East were petrified by Rommel’s victories. After seizing the British fortress of Tobruk in Libya in June 1942 he set his sights on the Suez Canal, on Palestine and the oil fields of the Middle East. > > “Those fighting Jewry can always rely on the sympathy of the Arab population,” the German army general staff wrote in an information booklet to prepare troops for the conquest of Palestine. ]([World War II: New Research Taints Image of Desert Fox Rommel - DER SPIEGEL](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,484510,00.html)) See wm, the order is “learn the facts _then_ post”. Give it a whirl. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/253 "2010-03-16T17:34:46Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Libellous distortions I assume you’re talking about your response to me? Seriously, why do you do this to yourself? Do you think that facts vanish? What, exactly, are you trying to deny? -The fact that the British disarmed the Jews? You’re going to deny that fact? Who, then, was disarming the Jewish population? Ninjas? -The fact that the British armed the Arabs? Who was it that gave weaponry to the Egyptians? The Spitfires that were involved in the fighting, they were manufactured by ninjas? Who was it who financed, armed and trained the Arab Legion and supplied it with British officers? Those dastardly ninjas again? -The fact that the British withdrew from Arab areas first and Jewish areas last, all the while preventing the Jews from arming themselves? Was that the ninjas again wm, in British uniforms (those dastardly ninjas!)? It is good of you to concede defeat though. ‘Ayieee, yoooz a zealot, I cannot refute your facts, zealotry makes facts impervious to refutation!’ Not the most elegant way to concede you aint got nuthin’, but quite popular among some it seems. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/254 "2010-03-16T17:37:06Z")
> [@](#): > > …I heard all these same arguments when I was an undergrad. You touch on a discouraging point: that the young men who are fighting on both sides likely had grandfathers who fought, it is a war handed down like a legacy of horror. It reminds me of young Viet Cong fighters scurrying through the tunnels their grandfathers dug. There will be peace when nothing else will be accepted. There will be peace when peace is more important than victory, when peace is more important than revenge. I am only hopeful because I insist upon it, in truth, the prospects are dim. I believe that only Israel can effectively make the moves. I believe that Israel is the more powerful, the more educated, and the more civilized. I do not mean this merely as a compliment, as it places the heavier burden on Israel. But if not they, who? If not now, when? Amos Oz said it best, the truest tragedy is when both antagonists have legitimate grievances. Such is the case here. I do not despair only because I refuse to despair, because that way lies only darkness, horror and death. Peace is not impossible, but very, very difficult. Someone must be first to accept a blow and not strike back. Is there another way? It is barely possible, but it is possible. It has been done, it can be done. Palestinian children playing soccer with Israeli children. Palestinian men loving and marrying Israeli women, and their grandchildren may only know how much their ancestors hated each other because the history books tell them so. It is possible, when we realize that we are the miracle we are waiting for. From my lips to the Ears. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/255 "2010-03-16T17:37:44Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > and how does it make sense to continue making settlements Run a search for my user name and the word “Spigot”. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/256 "2010-03-16T17:43:32Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Run a search for my user name and the word “Spigot”. Just give me a simple, short anwer please. Why keep building more and more settlements, and what happens to those who get displaced. It’s a reasonable question. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/257 "2010-03-16T17:44:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > oh, wait, no, that was Dick who started… Well tell the teacher then, and let her sort it out. I don’t personally care _why_ it is. I’ll just form my opinion about what should be done about Israel’s _current_ asshattery without either of you, or Joe Lieberman who seems to think that Israel is my little sister when it’s plain to all that she is not. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/258 "2010-03-16T17:49:35Z")
Skipping over the habitual unpleasantness that seems to be a tactic to “win” arguments by driving away everyone: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Seriously, how hard is it not to post from a position of utter ignorance wm? Watch your insults. They are becoming tiresome. > [@](#): > > The Mufti, far from being a German side-act, was in point of fact, guilty of crafting/instigating the Arab Riots against the Jews as early as the 1920’s. And? He was guilty of nationalist opposition to the British Mandate as well. However, contra certain obsessions, the Mandate was a side act to all the world, except of course interested parties. > [@](#): > > On his own, hardly at the German’s bidding. Shrug, indeed. Has fuck all to do with either what I wrote or your original bootstrapping of a sideshow into a Nazi demon. Funny, the Colonials don’t ever much seem to care for foreign rule. Whether they’re Hindus or whatnot. Took us a right long time to get that, but… Skipping over your recitation of … well irrelevancies I suppose to try to spin the image (we can stipulate to the fact the Mufit did not much care for either British rule nor Jewish colonisation from Europe, rather seems he saw them as one of a piece, a colourable point of view it must be noted). > [@](#): > > Also, contrary to your fiction, it was the British who appointed him Grand Mufti of Jersualem for life. My “fiction”? - you do have most inelegant and nasty habit of putting words in the mouths of others, strawmen and actual distortions. I’d ask you refrain. I do think it is in fact against the rules here. I said nothing in any way shape or form about his appointment nor any British role. I was replying to your gross exaggeration about his role with the Nazis. Pure and simple. And that I stand by. Perhaps in your heated imagination there is more implied, but certainly not in an ordinary reading. > [@](#): > > Whoopsie. Whoopsie yourself, you’ve clearly been caught in fabrication and putting words in my mouth, so bolster your partisan arguments and distortions. [quote] And of course your disbelief that he helped design the Final Solution is based on nothing other than you having no idea what the actual history is. Dieter Wisliceny, one of Eichman’s deputes, [testified that:](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dieter_Wisliceny) No, thanks for, however, giving me the opportunity to highlight your nasty methodology of attacking the messanger and not the ideas - “nicely” covered up ad hominems. In fact, I am quite aware that serious scholars, those less interested in creating demonisations of Arabs and Palestinians for justifying rather nasty politics, have found that said fellow’s testimony without basis. Notably Bernard Lewis, in Semites and Anti-Semites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice; Hannah Arendt in Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil; and Rafeal Medoff - I shan’t bother to go on, it amply illustrates what kind of argument and what kind of relationship with fact you have. > [@](#): > > See wm, the order is “learn the facts _then_ post”. > Give it a whirl. Your misplaced nasty snideness is well noted. Pity it is a habit. But then someone who argues: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re pretending that Jewish immigration was somehow “against the Arab interests” at the time. This is false,… should not be expected to show much deep regard for even handedness (or refraining from gross distortion in an attempt I would guess to squash critical rejoinder to his deeply felt positions). I would note of course by the queer spin in that argument, the Blacks of South Africa should bloody well thank the Good Boers for Apartheid, since the economic level of the country came up, relatively. And the Amerinds and other colonised peoples as well. That wee spot of trouble in having their lands taken away is a mere detail. Of course, normally I see it as up to the people in question to decide their interests. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/259 "2010-03-16T17:50:37Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] Just give me a simple, short anwer please. Why keep building more and more settlements, and what happens to those who get displaced. It’s a reasonable question. [/QUOTE] The short, simple answer is that they keep building settlements because it’s popular with the voters. There are other economic and security considerations, as well as other political considerations, but the short simple answer is that a large number of people in Israel want them. As to the second part of your question, I believe that most of the people being displaced were displaced a long time ago. Those that aren’t are most likely being compensated and, again at a guess, the ability to move to somewhere else in the OT. -XT ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/260 "2010-03-16T17:55:32Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The short, simple answer is that they keep building settlements because it’s popular with the voters. There are other economic and security considerations, as well as other political considerations, but the short simple answer is that a large number of people in Israel want them. > > As to the second part of your question, I believe that most of the people being displaced were displaced a long time ago. Those that aren’t are most likely being compensated and, again at a guess, the ability to move to somewhere else in the OT. > > -XT Is there any place or site to verify that these people are being compensated? Are there, or have there ever been any attempts to redress the past grievances of people who were displaced? As to “popular with voters”, if it results in an endless state of war, then maybe it’s time to try something different? As for > [@](#): > > most of the people being displaced were displaced a long time ago That makes no sense. What. they’re being displaced again? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=14)