# Israel and the USA-Why Does This Farce Continue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387 "2010-03-13T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/321 "2010-03-17T04:51:05Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > **Finn** , I’m going to ask you again: is there anything that Israel does that you find morally repugnant, or is is there even anything that they do that you find questionable in a “human rights” sense? > > I’d appreciate a response that doesn’t direct me to PM you. It’s TOTALLY relevant to this thread, especially as derailed as its become. > > I think the Dope at large would be very interested in your response. I know I am, and I mean you no harm or foul. There’s got to be something. Israel is a nation, and not perfect. Which acts has it committed that you wish it hadn’t? You WILL NOT get an answer on this. He will twist and turn and justify and qualify by using the “they are so much worse than us so its good” rationalisation or the “we are entitled to security and anything done in the name of security is better than the alternative response” ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/322 "2010-03-17T05:23:26Z")
For anyone interested, the [Haaretz](http://www.haaretz.com/) website has some interesting articles and commentary on the current situation. There’s clearly quite a lot of mixed sentiment about what’s happened and frustration with Netanyahu’s actions. Frankly, I would be interested in hearing from someone like \*\*Allesan \*\*about THAT rather than this oh-too-typical mini flame war currently going on in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/323 "2010-03-17T05:46:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > By no stretch of the imagination did **Sevastopol** say that. Actually, he very plainly did. It’s not difficult to understand either, it’s logic as its most base and easily accessible. I believe I learned the form in sixth grade. What, you require a formal logical proof or something? Okay. -Those who gain property by ‘theft’, that is conquering it and moving in and they (and as Sevastopol has gone on record, their descendants as well) are deserving of death. -The Muslim residents gained their property via ‘theft’, specifically by conquering it and then moving it. -So all Muslim residents are also deserving of death. I’m sure you recognize it Lucy, it’s called a syllogism. It’s very simple logic Lucy, in fact logic at pretty much its most simple level. Surely you recognize a syllogism? You do recognize the major premise, the minor premise, and the conclusion? I of course find it funny that you are trying to take me to task for my correct statement of what Sevastopol’s own rationalized logic that allows him to call for the murder of Israelis demands, but you don’t spare a single word for that call itself. And then you dispute the rather obvious logic. Go figure, eh? “All the settlers’ lives are forfeit and they should be murdered? Ah well, ho hum… but, wait, what’s that, a syllogism??? Holy shit, Finn, how dare you???” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/324 "2010-03-17T06:02:17Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > **Finn** , I’m going to ask you again And I’m going to tell you again, this thread is not about me. I refuse to make it about me. This is not an “ask the…” thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/325 "2010-03-17T06:03:46Z")
> [@leander](#): > > For anyone interested, the Haaretz website has some interesting articles and commentary on the current situation. […] > > Frankly, I would be interested in hearing from someone like Allesan about THAT I would too (and pssst, it’s “ **Alessan** ”). [One of the current articles in particular](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157020.html) described what sounds like a potential change of tone in the dialogue: > [@](#): > > Tensions ran high in Jerusalem on Tuesday while Washington waits for Israel’s response to demands raised by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that could help defuse the diplomatic crisis with the United States. > > Clinton’s demands include the cancellation of the Ramat Shlomo construction project in East Jerusalem, which was announced during U.S. Vice President Joe Biden’s visit to the region last week. > > She also wants goodwill gestures toward the Palestinians and a public declaration by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of his willingness to discuss the conflict’s core issues in the framework of peace negotiations with the Palestinian Authority. Am I right in thinking that if Israel **does** cancel the Ramat Shlomo project, that will constitute a pretty major climb-down? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/326 "2010-03-17T06:12:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Am I right in thinking that if Israel **does** cancel the Ramat Shlomo project, that will constitute a pretty major climb-down? No, you are not right. As I cited earlier in the thread, discussions on expanding housing in East Jerusalem in both Jewish and Arab neighborhoods have been going on for years now and there are thousands of new homes planned for both. This neighborhood in question is not the lion’s share of new homes that have been approved over the next few decades. What it will be is a symbolic knuckling-under to Palestinian demands and, more importantly, a change in US foreign policy that privileges Palestinian demands as the preconditions for negotiation. It will put paid to Obama’s campaign promises that Jerusalem’s fate will be worked out via negotiation and will instead mark the start of a strategy whereby Jerusalem’s fate is already made clear and attempting to negotiate on it at all is seen as an abrogation of the peace process itself. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/327 "2010-03-17T06:13:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And I’m going to tell you again, this thread is not about me. I refuse to make it about me. That’s reasonable, but I think you’d probably have better luck with it if you didn’t stress the snark-and-jeer motif quite so much in your posts. There are others snarking and jeering back at you, of course, and I don’t claim to know who started this pattern, but when it comes to hostility levels in a debate on this topic, yours tend to stand out not just for intensity but for consistency. If you’re going to be personally nasty to people when debating their positions (and by the way, I think deliberately distorting nicknames, as in calling **'luci** “ **Lucy** ”, counts as a form of nastiness), then they’re likely to take it personally and to make their responses personal in return. Oh, and just so you know, as long as we’re talking about nicknames: I like being referred to and addressed to in threads by my username “ **Kimstu** ”, not just “ **Kim** ”. If that’s okay with you, **FinnyGinny** old pal. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/328 "2010-03-17T06:17:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Am I right in thinking that if Israel does cancel the Ramat Shlomo project, that will constitute a pretty major climb-down? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, you are not right. […] What it will be is a symbolic knuckling-under to Palestinian demands and, more importantly, a change in US foreign policy that privileges Palestinian demands as the preconditions for negotiation. 😕 Sorry, but I don’t understand the distinction you’re trying to make here: it seems to me that you’re **agreeing** with me on the issue you say I’m not right about. Isn’t [climbing down](http://www.answers.com/topic/climb-down) in this context essentially the same thing as [knuckling under](http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/knuckle-under.html)? ETA: Or is it the term “pretty major” you were disagreeing with, rather than “climb-down”? ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/329 "2010-03-17T06:19:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I would too (and pssst, it’s “ **Alessan** ”). My apologies, and thanks for the correction. > [@](#): > > [One of the current articles in particular](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157020.html) described what sounds like a potential change of tone in the dialogue: > > Am I right in thinking that if Israel **does** cancel the Ramat Shlomo project, that will constitute a pretty major climb-down? I would think yes, though I also think it’s highly unlikely. Perhaps a temporary freeze on building there as a symbolic gesture. But as noted in several articles, this is a delicate matter for Netanyahu - domestically he can’t seem weak and standing up to the US will win him favour from many Israelis; on the other hand he can’t really piss off the US, and he is seemingly under lots of pressure to not cause serious damage to the “special relationship.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/330 "2010-03-17T06:26:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > when it comes to hostility levels in a debate on this topic, yours tend to stand out not just for intensity but for consistency. I attack arguments, not people. That some posters use arguments which are deserving of nothing but refutation and dismantling, or that I have to point out that their arguments ignore or distorted what I’ve said while making spurious claims about my position, or they make claims that are factually incorrect and do not auto-modify when they are shown to be factually in error… is just the way things go. I make no apologies for not kindly treating arguments based on non-facts or nonsense or fallacies. I believe that facts are important and that fighting ignorance is not just a random tag line. Now, if you’re really complaining about abbreviating your username… Your username has two syllables, each a proper name. I suppose I could write “stu” instead of “kim”, but then again “kim” comes first in the order. If you really need to, er, retaliate against such mean and low-down conduct from me, you can feel free to call me Finn. I will try not to cry. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/331 "2010-03-17T06:27:04Z")
> [@leander](#): > > But as noted in several articles, this is a delicate matter for Netanyahu - domestically he can’t seem weak and standing up to the US will win him favour from many Israelis; on the other hand he can’t really piss off the US, and he is seemingly under lots of pressure to not cause serious damage to the “special relationship.” I thought [another of those articles](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157045.html) had an interesting take on Netanyahu’s position: it’s an interview with a Likud leader who said: > [@](#): > > I warned Netanyahu about it. A few months ago I told him and [Likud MK] Benny Begin, our mutual friend - who, incidentally, have an excellent relationship now - that when you speak not only in two tongues but even in three, you are liable to get into trouble. In the end everyone will rise up against you, which is what’s happening now. […] > > To the right he said we’re going to freeze the settlements, but only for 10 months so as to demonstrate goodwill. To the Americans, he said, “I’m the first prime minister to freeze construction. What else can you ask of me? After all, none of my predecessors did so.” And to the Palestinians he said, “Nu, now let’s see you.” > > When you speak in three tongues, then from an intellectual point of view, there’s something missing here. If you say “I’m freezing [construction] in order to begin negotiations, and apparently the negotiations will be renewed within 10 months and afterward I’ll start building again,” there’s an internal contradiction, because if you’re willing to stop construction for the purpose of beginning negotiations, what will you say later, when the negotiations are in full flow? How will you resume construction?" ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/332 "2010-03-17T06:33:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > it seems to me that you’re **agreeing** with me on the issue you say I’m not right about. I’m not agreeing with you. The decision to stop a small percentage of the planned housing development is not a major ‘climbing down’. As your link puts it, a major climbing down would be a major change in policy, and a minor reversal in housing plans is not a major change in those plans. It is agreeing to the PA’s demands, at the US’ bidding, before negotiation even begins that is the knuckling under, submitting. The housing itself is fairly minor and doesn’t represent a significant change. Unilaterally conceding that something is a fait accompli, which was supposed to be the subject of potential negotiation is, however, a massive change. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/333 "2010-03-17T06:39:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I thought [another of those articles](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157045.html) had an interesting take on Netanyahu’s position: it’s an interview with a Likud leader who said: That was an interesting read. Certainly (like all politicians) Netanyahu will not be able to please all of the people. I suppose he has to ultimately decide who he wants to piss off most and what will be the consequences, politically and otherwise. Two more editorials at opposite ends: [It’s time for Netanyahu to say yes to Obama](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157031.html) [Israel doesn’t need to grovel for U.S. forgiveness](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1156783.html) Difficult position, to put it mildly. Again, I would be quite keen to hear from people like Alessan, who are on the front lines, on which direction they believe is most advantageous, and why. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/334 "2010-03-17T06:41:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Now, if you’re really complaining about abbreviating your username… > Your username has two syllables, each a proper name. I suppose I could write “stu” instead of “kim”, but then again “kim” comes first in the order. How about writing “ **Kimstu** ”? It’s the name I use here, and it’s only six letters. Is there some reason you **have** to abbreviate it? Of course, you don’t have to address or refer to me at all if you don’t want to. But if you do refer to me by name, is it really such a dreadful imposition to refer to me by the name that I’ve explicitly told you I prefer? This is kind of what I mean about how your levels of hostility come across here. You claim that you attack arguments and not people, but it seems to be very important to you to maintain a jeering and condescending tone towards people while arguing with them. You appear to feel that projecting goodwill and courtesy, at least toward somebody who’s disagreeing with you, is a sign of weakness. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/335 "2010-03-17T06:43:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The decision to stop a small percentage of the planned housing development is not a major ‘climbing down’. As your link puts it, a major climbing down would be a major change in policy, and a minor reversal in housing plans is not a major change in those plans. Oh okay, then it **was** the “pretty major” qualifier that you were objecting to. I see your point, and thanks for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/336 "2010-03-17T06:46:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It is agreeing to the PA’s demands, at the US’ bidding, before negotiation even begins that is the knuckling under, submitting. The housing itself is fairly minor and doesn’t represent a significant change. Unilaterally conceding that something is a fait accompli, which was supposed to be the subject of potential negotiation is, however, a massive change. Okay, now I’m confused again. So are you saying that stopping the Ramat Shlomo construction in itself would be no big deal, but doing so because Hillary Clinton “demanded” it **would** be a big deal? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/337 "2010-03-17T07:00:43Z")
Yes and no. Stopping that specific housing project is not really a big deal. Stopping it because the US says so is kind of a big deal, but not without precedent. Saying that instead of the status of Jerusalem being reached through negotiation, that we’re already assuming the end result and we can pretty much skip the whole ‘negotiation’ phase of negotiating and just reserve EJ for the PA is a _major_ change. Both McCain and Obama stressed, during the election campaigns, that the future of Jerusalem would be made by the two sides negotiating on it. This seems to change that and assume, ahead of time, that the PA will get EJ and that Israel better not touch it any further. [ > [@](#): > > “The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive and that allows them to prosper,” Obama told AIPAC. “But any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel’s identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized defensible borders — and Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.” > […] > His top foreign policy adviser, Susan Rice, said his statement was misunderstood in some quarters. She insisted Obama knows that this is a final status issue — he just does not want to see barbed wire wind through Jerusalem. > > “It is an issue that is to be negotiated by the parties,” Rice said, “not one that Sen. Obama presumed to pronounce on at AIPAC or anywhere else. It is a final status issue: Jerusalem ought to be Israel’s capital, and it should not be re-divided, as it once was for many years between '48 and '67, with checkpoints and barbed wires and the like.” ]([McCain, Obama Offer Two Paths On Mideast Policy : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92472717)) That’s pretty clearly a change from what we’re seeing now, that rather than being a Final Status issue, Obama’s administrating is effectively assuring that PA that they’re probably going to get EJ and confirming that the PA is right to demand that it is a precondition to the negotiations themselves. That’s the major change and that the ‘knuckling under’: going from an agreement that the outcome will be based on negotiations, and even then that it will be a Final Status issue after everything else is resolved… to it being decided that the outcome is a precondition for negotiations themselves and Final Status issues will come only after this is resolved. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/338 "2010-03-17T07:39:15Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes and no. Stopping that specific housing project is not really a big deal. Stopping it because the US says so is kind of a big deal, but not without precedent. Saying that instead of the status of Jerusalem being reached through negotiation, that we’re already assuming the end result and we can pretty much skip the whole ‘negotiation’ phase of negotiating and just reserve EJ for the PA is a _major_ change. Both McCain and Obama stressed, during the election campaigns, that the future of Jerusalem would be made by the two sides negotiating on it. This seems to change that and assume, ahead of time, that the PA will get EJ and that Israel better not touch it any further. > > [url=[McCain, Obama Offer Two Paths On Mideast Policy : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92472717)] > > That’s pretty clearly a change from what we’re seeing now, that rather than being a Final Status issue, Obama’s administrating is effectively assuring that PA that they’re probably going to get EJ and confirming that the PA is right to demand that it is a precondition to the negotiations themselves. That’s the major change and that the ‘knuckling under’: going from an agreement that the outcome will be based on negotiations, and even then that it will be a Final Status issue after everything else is resolved… to it being decided that the outcome is a precondition for negotiations themselves and Final Status issues will come only after this is resolved. Wait a second, can we back up the bus here. Sometimes I miss the nuance in your agruement, but are you suggesting that for this project to be stopped, it would be “assuming the outcome of negotiations”? Is that correct? (and please can we have a simple, short answer?) If that is your position, doesn’t the converse also hold true - that for the construction to go ahead it also assumes the outcome of the negotiations? And just a side note - when trying to sell anything I was always taught “KISS” - or Keep it short, stupid (or its partner, keep it simple) so I would really appreciate if you could give a short and succinct answer please. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/339 "2010-03-17T08:00:18Z")
> [@leander](#): > > For anyone interested, the [Haaretz](http://www.haaretz.com/) website has some interesting articles and commentary on the current situation. There’s clearly quite a lot of mixed sentiment about what’s happened and frustration with Netanyahu’s actions. > > Frankly, I would be interested in hearing from someone like \*\*Allesan \*\*about THAT rather than this oh-too-typical mini flame war currently going on in this thread. First of all, sorry I haven’t been around - I usually bail these threads after three or four pages, because, well…they’re all the same, you know? Second of all, I can’t really argue the face that Bibi screwed the pooch here. I already noted my contempt for the man earlier on in this thread; to my eternal chagrin, I voted for him in '96 - and I never intend to make that mistake again. Here’s a quote from Nahum Barnea in Yediot Aharonot, Israel’s leading paper (and far more centrist than the left-wing Haaretz) [brought by Tom Friedman in today’s NYT:](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/opinion/17friedman.html?ref=opinion) > [@](#): > > The columnist Nahum Barnea of the Israeli daily Yediot Aharonot compared Netanyahu “to one of those elderly drivers who straddle two lanes for fear of making a mistake, making the drivers trailing after them crazy and cause accidents. When he signals left, he turns right. When he signals right, he continues straight ahead.” (Friedman’s a dick, but he makes some good points). That said… the recent fiasco has to be seen in a larger context. If you’ll allow me to quote the Times again, [the following column](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/opinion/28benn.html)was written by Haaretz editor Aluf Benn, one of Israel’s staunchest left-wing pundits, and a man who likes Netanyahu a \*lot \*less than I do. It was written last summer, but if anything, things are even worse now: > [@](#): > > But he hasn’t bothered to speak directly to Israelis. > > And the effect? Six months into his presidency, Israelis find themselves increasingly suspicious of Mr. Obama. All they see is American pressure on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to freeze settlements, a request that’s been interpreted here as political arm-twisting meant to please the Arab street at Israel’s expense — or simply to express the president’s dislike for Mr. Netanyahu. > > This would seem counterproductive, given the importance the president has placed on resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If Israel is part of the problem, it’s also part of the solution. Yet so far, neither the president nor any senior administration official has given a speech or an interview aimed at an Israeli audience, beyond brief statements made at diplomatic photo ops. > > The Arabs got the Cairo speech; we got silence. > > This policy of ignoring Israel carries a price. Though Mr. Obama has succeeded in prodding Mr. Netanyahu to accept the idea of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, he has failed to induce Israel to impose a freeze on settlements. In fact, he has failed even to stir debate about the merits of one: no Israeli political figure has stood up to Mr. Netanyahu and begged him to support Mr. Obama; not even the Israeli left, desperate for a new agenda, has adopted Mr. Obama as its icon. > > * * * > > Perhaps there are good reasons behind Mr. Obama’s Middle East policy. Perhaps the settlement freeze is in Israel’s best interest. Perhaps the president is truly committed to Israel’s long-term security and well-being. Perhaps his popularity in the Arab street is the missing ingredient of peacemaking. > > But until the president talks to us, we won’t know. Next time you’re in the neighborhood, Mr. President, speak to us directly. We will surely listen. I don’t really have anything to add to that. Bibi can’t influence Israeli public opinion - he’s a follower, not a leader. Obama can. If he wins us over to his side, the government will follow. But even if we despise Bibi, he’s still our Prime Minister. If we feel he’s being picked on unjustly, we’ll stand behind him. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/340 "2010-03-17T09:37:52Z")
\*\*Alessan \*\*- I really appreciate your comments on this. It’s nighttime here (Sydney AU) and St Patty’s day at that (!), so I won’t be able to reply until tomorrow. But I certainly have thoughts and questions for you, and I hope you will indulge me. And it will be refreshing to have a reasonable discussion about Israel in GD! 😉 Cheers, leander [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=18)