# Israel and the USA-Why Does This Farce Continue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387 "2010-03-13T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/341 "2010-03-17T11:43:47Z")
From my understanding, the “attack the argument, not the arguer” rule is there to avoid incidents of using personal knowledge about one’s opponent to sour the discourse, eg. Two posters are arguing about fishing, after a heated rally, one says to the other, “Ah yes, but you shit the bed, so your opinion doesn’t matter!” Now compare that with a situation where two people are arguing about football, Man United. in particular, and one person will not concede any fault in the team. Is it not a fair question to ask the United defender who he actually supports? And if they unsurprisingly say “United”, does that not lessen the weight of said person’s arguments? We already know Finn Again is an Israel fan, and some of us are fronting him on his fanboy wankery and would like him to consider the point of the other team, for a pleasant change. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/342 "2010-03-17T11:58:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So without a cite you challenge testimony, and then claim I’m ‘spinning’. I already gave you three cites of scholars - Israelis and Jews notably - that dismissed said testimony, scroll up or do a little bloody search on the page, the post with the cites to Lewis, etc. Or perhaps that’s not part of your game. I’m through with this, that your behaviour is tolerated is really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/343 "2010-03-17T13:02:32Z")
> [@rights of schools to take things from students](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-schools-to-take-things-from-students/59874/4): > > I don’t really have anything to add to that. Bibi can’t influence Israeli public opinion - he’s a follower, not a leader. Obama can. If he wins us over to his side, the government will follow. He’s our President, not yours. Elvislives said it best earlier in this thread: > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What was Biden doing over there, then? Just wasting his time, because Israel won’t listen to anybody but the Leader of the Free World himself in person, and not his #2? The President has nothing better to do with his time? Get over yourselves already. Couldn’t have said it better. - Honesty P.S. who is Bibi ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/344 "2010-03-17T13:10:33Z")
If all you want to do is berate us, fine. Knock yourself out. Some people here actually want to \*solve \*problems. And Bibi is Benjamin “Bibi” Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel. That you don’t know that extremely basic piece of knowledge pretty much disqualifies you from discussing anything pertaining to the Middle East, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/345 "2010-03-17T13:26:31Z")
Yes, because _everyone_ should know what Netanyahoo’s nickname is! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/346 "2010-03-17T13:32:57Z")
Everyone who knows anything about the Mideast, yes. Netanyahu is referred to by his nickname far more often than by his surname. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/347 "2010-03-17T13:44:04Z")
**Captain Amazing** : According to your post upthread, the expansion of settlements have religious/political/security underpinnings, correct? This may sound stupid, but…is there a housing shortage for Jews in Israel? Are there other viable places to build more housing within the established Israeli borders if so? It just seems to me that Israel should be the one to back down on this issue, and not because the USA says so, but because (to me) it would make the most sense. For one, it would be something of an olive branch towards the Palestinians. For two, it would lessen a lot of violence that invariably occurs as a result of disputed settlements. If Israel already has enough land/resources to take care of its people, perhaps its time they realized that they, being the more powerful country, should take the first step if they truly want peace with their neighbors. It seems to me that this would be the right thing to do. The cynical part of me also happens to believe that even with the establishment of a Palestinian state that there will never be peace in the region. I think the religious hatred has simply gone on for far too long and that there are deep-seated prejudices on both sides that would take a millenia to go away. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/348 "2010-03-17T14:41:13Z")
[**Israel First?**](http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/15/israel-first/) > [@](#): > > \*\*The America-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) has done a very unwise thing: It has issued a statement criticizing the Obama Administration, rather than Israel, for its reaction to the Netanyahu government’s recent announcement of more illegal settlement blocks in East Jerusalem–an announcement that was made during Vice President Joe Biden’s visit last week, an act of extreme rudeness on top of its unquestioned illegality. > > This is quite remarkable. I may be wrong–and commenters are welcome to correct me–but I can’t remember another ethnic or religious lobbying group publicly siding with a foreign country against the President of the United States…especially when the country in question is engaging in behavior that the international community believes is illegal. Once again, every U.S. President since Richard Nixon has called for a freeze of settlements being built in Palestinian areas, including East Jerusalem, conquered by Israel in 1967. AIPAC stands, with Israel, against every one of those Presidents. > > I certainly hope AIPAC comes to its senses soon. But I suspect it wants a showdown with the Obama Administration, which, unlike its Bush predecessor, has stood with the rest of the world in requesting that Israel adhere to Road Map laid out by the so-called quartet (the U.S., E.U., U.N. and Russia), a plan the West Bank Palestinians seem to be taking seriously. This is an attempt by AIPAC to show muscle and force the Obama Administration to back down: Israel has tremendous support in the United States, especially among Evangelicals (who believe that the achievement of a Greater Israel–that is, the annexation of Palestinian lands–would be a precursor of the Rapture). > > As an American Jew, I find this extremely embarrassing and unfortunate. This could get very, very ugly.\*\* Americans or Israelis? Hmm…what to do what to do? Well, as mentioned in the article and amply demonstrated in this and many other threads on this topic – criticism of Israeli policies – I guess for many the choice is…Israel can do no wrong. Period. The End. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/349 "2010-03-17T14:49:39Z")
Originally Posted by **FinnAgain** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12232134#post12232134) No retraction on your massive factual errors about what Israel demands wrt violence, you’re just going to keep soldering on, eh? > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You just keep on believing with your factual errors. 🙂 > > Can you answer the question please. I’m interested in whether the UN partition decision in 1947, which most people would say allowed the creation of Israel, shouldn’t have happened due to ongoing Jewish terrorism. Should the UN have said that there can be no concessions to terrorism and demanded a complete cessation of Jewish violence before making any decision? That’s the specific question I’d like you to answer. Come on then, what about an answer? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/350 "2010-03-17T15:27:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If all you want to do is berate us, fine. Knock yourself out. Some people here actually want to \*solve \*problems. > > And Bibi is Benjamin “Bibi” Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel. That you don’t know that extremely basic piece of knowledge pretty much disqualifies you from discussing anything pertaining to the Middle East, IMHO. Really? OK then, what brand of cigarettes does Obama smoke? Don’t you know? INCONCEIVABLE! Both Bibi’s nickname and Obama’s ciggies are irrelevant. It sounds like a mess over there. Politicians trying to play both ends against the middle, moderates wondering what’s going to happen next, and hardliners who don’t care about anyone but themselves. Putting a moratorium on new construction would be a gesture. It would send the message of “look guys, we want to talk, and we know these projects piss you off, so in the interest of peace (or at least in the interest of a little less killing), we make this opening gesture”. If it gets talks going, great. If you get The Finger instead, at least then you’ve made a first move. You can’t say you want to negotiate, and in the same breath say “we aren’t changing anything at all”. That sort of position sends the message of “don’t waste your time”. Negotiation is Give And Take. You haggle. You reach a concensus, meaning you get something both sides can accept - you don’t go for “all or nothing”. You give something up, to get something else. If it stops the killing, then it’s worth it. If the “radical right” or whatever it’s called won’t go along, and keep creating new settlements, send the police to arrest them in accordance with your law. No building is worth so many lives. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/351 "2010-03-17T15:31:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And Bibi is Benjamin “Bibi” Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel. That you don’t know that extremely basic piece of knowledge pretty much disqualifies you from discussing anything pertaining to the Middle East, IMHO. Cool. Soon as I read that, a [rainbowed star](http://http://blogsap.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg) arced over my head. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/352 "2010-03-17T15:31:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > (Friedman’s a dick, but he makes some good points). The next six months will be crucial. 😉 > [@](#): > > I don’t really have anything to add to that. Bibi can’t influence Israeli public opinion - he’s a follower, not a leader. Obama can. If he wins us over to his side, the government will follow. > > But even if we despise Bibi, he’s still our Prime Minister. If we feel he’s being picked on unjustly, we’ll stand behind him. That’s worrisome. You’re saying Israel simply lacks leaders of its own who have the courage to take risks in the cause of a longer-term good. That you need to be told what to do by somebody a continent and an ocean away, but even that will only work if it’s what you want to hear, and it’s said in just the right tone. You’re telling us that Israel will never accept full responsibility for its own situation and its own future, but will always throw the blame onto others, either its neighbors or its subsidizers. Is that what you mean to tell us? That’s what it seems to be. > [@Honesty](#): > > Couldn’t have said it better. Thanks, but maybe I can: Israel will get peace when Israel wants peace. Just as Israel will be a democracy when Israel accepts the responsibilities of democracy. Can that ever happen? > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > you’re just going to keep soldering on, eh? Using acid-core or resin-core solder? Acid-core gives a stronger joint, but electrical connections require resin-core to prevent corrosion. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/353 "2010-03-17T15:46:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That you don’t know that extremely basic piece of knowledge pretty much disqualifies you from discussing anything pertaining to the Middle East, IMHO. Wait, I didn’t catch this part. I didn’t think Bibi was your PM because I’ve never heard of a modern Head of State having a cutsey nickname. I guess we’d do the same if Condoleezza ever got elected President, though. I will continue to discuss Middle Eastern politics as long as my federal withholding is continued to be wasted there. I tell you what, though. We reduce our funding for the Middle East to the paltry aid we give to the entire East African region and I won’t care what you guys do down there. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/354 "2010-03-17T16:07:18Z")
How very odd. Here is **Finn** , arguing The Truth, with impeccable logic and undeniable facts, presented with perfect clarity. And yet Dopers do not flock to his banner, he is not greeted with glad cries and hossanas. There is no flaw in his arguments, they are perfection itself, and yet! we are not unanimous in our admiration and agreement. What can it mean? Really, there are only two possibilities here, no? The first is that we Dopers are mostly idjits who cannot recognize crystaline truth when it is presented to us in a form of perfect clarity. The other is that **Finn** is…no, one cannot say it, it is impossible, unthinkable. Perish the thought! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/355 "2010-03-17T17:20:28Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I didn’t think Bibi was your PM because I’ve never heard of a modern Head of State having a cutsey nickname. Dubya? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/356 "2010-03-17T17:25:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That you don’t know that extremely basic piece of knowledge pretty much disqualifies you from discussing anything pertaining to the Middle East, IMHO. Since when has total or willful ignorance or errors stopped anybody from voicing strident opinions on this topic? I like you, you’re an optimist. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/357 "2010-03-17T19:21:59Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’m not entirely sure it is ad hominem. You are like Starving Artist in that there are many that just can’t be bothered discussing anything with you on this topic because you are incapable of considering anything except the absolute innocence of the Israeli state. Do you have me mixed up with **FinnAgain** by any chance? 😃 I’ve hardly said anything about Israel here. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/358 "2010-03-17T19:38:31Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] What can it mean? Really, there are only two possibilities here, no? The first is that we Dopers are mostly idjits who cannot recognize crystaline truth when it is presented to us in a form of perfect clarity. The other is that Finn is…no, one cannot say it, it is impossible, unthinkable. Perish the thought! [/QUOTE] Never been in one of the endless Global Warming or CT threads, ehe? 😛 Or, more apt, one of the threads on nuclear energy… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/359 "2010-03-17T19:53:50Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Do you have me mixed up with **FinnAgain** by any chance? 😃 > > I’ve hardly said anything about Israel here. Oops. Just saw that you _were_ talking to **FinnAgain**. So nevermind. I still haven’t said much about Israel though. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/360 "2010-03-17T20:04:17Z")
Meh, what’s the point XT? He already failed to understand how a syllogism, one of the most basic of logical constructs, works. Now he’s actually pulled out the bandwagon fallacy and coupled it with the false dichotomy fallacy, and as acting as if he’s made a point. As if anybody reading along is going to be taken in anyways and think that the members of the Israel Can Do No Right Brigade (racist humor provide by Ivan) will suddenly change their minds when they’re shown that their facts are in error or what have you. The same people who have argued the same positions on the same issues aren’t and have had the same factual errors corrected and go on to repeat the same errors later in the same thread or in another thread aren’t going to be swayed by being shown that they’re wrong, we all know that. The same people who’ll see someone criticizing some decision or other of Israel a few posts up and then claim that poster never criticizes Israel. Obviously, the inability to win such people over shows the lack of merits that an argument has. I mean… right? It’s the same reason that Dick didn’t post a retraction of his claim that for years Israel refused to negotiate until violence ceased… and then when faced with the fact that not only was that not true but that Israel had engaged in major negotiations while violence was dramatically increasing, he remained mum and tried to change the subject. And nobody on his side of the fence took him to task. It’s just the way things go. That there’s a cherry on top with ‘we must be total idiots or perfectly correct, and if we’re not dooling on ourselves then it’s proof that when a dozen of us agree and someone else doesn’t, he must be wrong, the facts be damned!’ is just, well, gilding the lily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=19)