# Israel and the USA-Why Does This Farce Continue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387 "2010-03-13T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/361 "2010-03-17T22:00:35Z")
[Israel Seeks to Mend Rift With the U.S.](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/world/middleeast/18mideast.html): > [@](#): > > (NYT, March 17, 2010) > The prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, hurried to distance himself from remarks made by his brother-in-law, Hagai Ben-Artzi, in a radio interview on Wednesday, in which he described President Obama as an anti-Semite. Mr. Netanyahu said that he “utterly rejected” the comments made by his wife’s brother, whose hawkish views are well known. > … > While addressing schoolchildren in the central Israeli city of Holon, Mr. Peres suggested making a distinction between Israeli building in Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem that were erected after 1967, and in the Arab neighborhoods where the majority of the city’s Palestinian population lives. > … > Given the severity of the current crisis, however, it is doubtful that an Israeli commitment to refrain from building in the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem, as Mr. Peres has proposed, will be enough to satisfy the Americans’ demands. No actual sign of the requested commitment to peace yet. Perhaps next week? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/362 "2010-03-17T22:55:29Z")
Is there really a “crises” between the USA and Israel? I’m not buying it. Diplomatic hand-slapping notwithstanding, Israel has been and will remain a staunch ally of the US, and the US a staunch ally of Israel. This seems so overblown to me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/363 "2010-03-17T23:26:51Z")
!! > [@tomndebb](#): > > **TWEEEEET!!** > > The next personal jab from anyone–even if it would not normally be a violation of the rules–will get a Warning. > > Knock it off. Stick to the topic. Make no observations about other posters. > > **[/Moderating]** > [@elucidator](#): > > I’m sorry, did I interrupt? Well, then, just pick up where you left off, that your views are the clear and unvarnished truth, and anyone who disagrees is a liar or a fool. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Hopefully you can stop making the same mistake again and again and again now. Right? > [@elucidator](#): > > It would appear that your tone of relentless belligerence masks a position amenable to reason. This is good. > [@amanset](#): > > A phrase that neither FinnAgain nor Captain Amazing, our local “Israel can do no wrong” cheerleaders, decided to comment upon. > [@elucidator](#): > > This sort of thing ought to be beneath you, work on that, won’t you? There’s a good chap. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I of course find it funny that you are trying to take me to task for my correct statement of what Sevastopol’s own rationalized logic that allows him to call for the murder of Israelis demands, but you don’t spare a single word for that call itself. And then you dispute the rather obvious logic. Go figure, eh? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > We already know Finn Again is an Israel fan, and some of us are fronting him on his fanboy wankery and would like him to consider the point of the other team, for a pleasant change. > [@wmfellows](#): > > I’m through with this, that your behaviour is tolerated is really interesting. > [@elucidator](#): > > How very odd. Here is **Finn** , arguing The Truth, with impeccable logic and undeniable facts, presented with perfect clarity. And yet Dopers do not flock to his banner, he is not greeted with glad cries and hossanas. There is no flaw in his arguments, they are perfection itself, and yet! we are not unanimous in our admiration and agreement. > > What can it mean? Really, there are only two possibilities here, no? The first is that we Dopers are mostly idjits who cannot recognize crystaline truth when it is presented to us in a form of perfect clarity. The other is that **Finn** is…no, one cannot say it, it is impossible, unthinkable. Perish the thought! > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Meh, what’s the point XT? He already failed to understand how a syllogism, one of the most basic of logical constructs, works. Now he’s actually pulled out the bandwagon fallacy and coupled it with the false dichotomy fallacy, and as acting as if he’s made a point. > As if anybody reading along is going to be taken in anyways and think that the members of the Israel Can Do No Right Brigade (racist humor provide by Ivan) will suddenly change their minds when they’re shown that their facts are in error or what have you. > . . . > That there’s a cherry on top with ‘we must be total idiots or perfectly correct, and if we’re not dooling on ourselves then it’s proof that when a dozen of us agree and someone else doesn’t, he must be wrong, the facts be damned!’ is just, well, gilding the lily. \*\*Warnings issued. [/Moderating]\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/364 "2010-03-17T23:48:23Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > A phrase that neither FinnAgain nor Captain Amazing, our local “Israel can do no wrong” cheerleaders, decided to comment upon. You realize that, in this very thread, I’ve explicitly said that I think that the granting of the building permits referenced in the OP was unwise, and that I also criticized all the major Israeli parties for pandering to the Haredi and settler communities. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/365 "2010-03-18T00:07:49Z")
Deja vu all over again. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Come on then, what about an answer? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Not only did I answer, I proved that you were factually incorrect, yet again. I guess I can elaborate for the benefit of those reading along. > > The official Israeli defense forces did not use terrorism, those that did had no ability/drive to found a state as the entire apparatus of Jewish government was behind the Haganah, not Irgun. Nor was it an ongoing campaign since once the British left, they were (in the main) no longer targeted. The entire reason that the Haganah was founded in the first place was due to Arab terrorism against Jews and a virtual absence of protection from the British. The reason that Irgun split from the Haganah was because the Nazi-aligned Grand Mufti helped continue orchestrating violence aimed at Jews and some Jews were not content to simply defend themselves, especially after events like the genocidal cleansing of Hebron of its Jewish population. > You have, in fact, refrained from even mentioning these facts and gone as far as to try to equivocate the Mufti’s alliance with the Nazis for the purpose of exterminating the Jews from the face of the Earth with a most likely forged letter that purported to come from an organization with fewer than 100 members and which, in any case, offered to keep attacking the British as they’d been doing anyways if the Germans would spare the lives of some of the Jews they planned on butchering. > > The reason that the Irgun turned their attention to attacking the British was that the British were arming and supporting the Arabs and using racist immigration policies to keep Jews out while allowing Arabs to immigrate. And that, even after the war was over, the British stopped Jews from entering and instead imprisoned them behind barbed wire in detention camps. > > And despite your non-factual claims on yet another point, the international community did not reward Irgun. They determined that there were two populations who wanted self determination and acted to grant that to both populations. The proto-Israelis agreed, the Arab states refused and launched a war of annihilation. > > And on yet another error of yours, I’ve already clarified (I think, perhaps, seven or eight times now) my remarks about ongoing violence and the existential reality behind a declared peace treaty in its face. > So not only is there any question of yours that’s gone unanswered, the very premise is based on a substantial and glaring distortion that’s been cleared up time and time and time again. For those reading along check the time stamps. And the time stamps on my previous answers to the same question. The same question has been asked, and answered, several times. I’m not even sure if that’s going to count as a “personal jab” at this point, but I’d rather not have anybody joining the thread late think that I really didn’t answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/366 "2010-03-18T00:44:15Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > ‘settlers’ is the wording prescribed by Israeli govt and must be rejected. Looters have forfeited their lives. > > “They cannot be held responsible like civilised people as, they are only Jews.” Well, it’s an argument I suppose, but it is surprising to see it so widely, quietly accepted. Since you invented this straw man and since you are clearly making inflammatroy comments that have no connection to the thread, you are on notice that your next similar threadshitting will get you a Warning. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/367 "2010-03-18T01:01:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > You realize that, in this very thread, I’ve explicitly said that I think that the granting of the building permits referenced in the OP was unwise, and that I also criticized all the major Israeli parties for pandering to the Haredi and settler communities. True. You also were the only who saw fit to actually answer my questions. It was one of the few posts in the thread I thought was worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/368 "2010-03-18T01:03:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Since you invented this straw man and since you are clearly making inflammatroy comments that have no connection to the thread, you are on notice that your next similar threadshitting will get you a Warning. > > [/Moderating] Strawman? No connection? Similar? These are vague as to be incomprehensible. Or to use your own charming register, what the fuck are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/369 "2010-03-18T01:03:45Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] True. You also were the only who saw fit to actually answer my questions. It was one of the few posts in the thread I thought was worth reading. [/QUOTE] Huh…and here I thought I answered them as well. Not that I’m claiming my answers were interesting, or anything, but I did TRY and answer them… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/370 "2010-03-18T01:12:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Deja vu all over again. > > For those reading along check the time stamps. And the time stamps on my previous answers to the same question. The same question has been asked, and answered, several times. I’m not even sure if that’s going to count as a “personal jab” at this point, but I’d rather not have anybody joining the thread late think that I really didn’t answer the question. You haven’t answered the question at all. I’m interested in whether the UN partition decision in 1947, which most people would say allowed the creation of Israel, shouldn’t have happened due to ongoing Jewish terrorism. Should the UN have said that there can be no concessions to terrorism and demanded a complete cessation of Jewish violence before making any decision? That’s the specific question I’d like you to answer. If anybody can see the answer to the question anywhere in this thread can you let me know please? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/371 "2010-03-18T01:24:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Huh…and here I thought I answered them as well. Not that I’m claiming my answers were interesting, or anything, but I did TRY and answer them… > > -XT Apologies there. There were so many fights going on, I got distracted and lost track. Yes you did answer. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/372 "2010-03-18T01:28:51Z")
No worries…it was fairly easy to get lost in the fighting, no doubt. -XT ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/373 "2010-03-18T01:32:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No worries…it was fairly easy to get lost in the fighting, no doubt. > > -XT Sometimes I get in the middle of stuff, get distracted by someth… ooooohh shiny! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/374 "2010-03-18T01:33:07Z")
Yep, same question asked and answered multiple times, sames mistakes pointed out multiple times. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You are also committing the same factual error that I just pointed out, namely that the decision was not to “give Israel a state” but to partition the land so that two ethnic groups could achieve self determination. And the land was specifically partitioned along ethnic-majority lines. > > And yet again you’re repeating the same mistake that I just cleared for you int he post right above, that nobody’s said that there can’t be negotiations in the face of sporadic violence aimed at ending violence and securing peace. As for your repeated error that the partition plan created Israel, yep, cleared up that mistake too. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, we didn’t do that either. The proto-Israelis set their own state up with marked lack of international support (other than some Czech support, oddly enough). In point of fact, the British pulled out, in a manner that was designed to favor the Arab powers and hinder the proto-Israelis, and the resulting war set up the state of Israel. Like I said “Not only did I answer, I proved that you were factually incorrect, yet again.” You are repeating a question whose premises have been shown to be false-to-facts and whose punchline has been shown to have nothing to do with anything that’s been said anywhere. Acknowledging the factual errors, correct them, and then see if there’s anything to base a question on. As it’s related, you might also want to correct your massive factual error when you claimed that Israel refused to negotiate until violence ceased when in fact some of the most significant (and well known) spates of negotiation occurred when violence was steadily and profoundly escalating against Israel. Especially since you used that factual error to prop up the bogus bit of your question (based on something nobody said anywhere) as to whether or not it would somehow be wrong to negotiate until all violence was stopped. If you ask a question that isn’t predicated on factual error, strawmanning and non-sequitor, it might even be possible to answer it. As it stands now, it deserves as much of an answer as “So have you stopped beating your wife?” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/375 "2010-03-18T01:52:08Z")
Well, you answered a very interesting question, just not the one you were asked. Oversimplified, the question is if it was legitimate for Israel to use terroristic methods to achieve the goals of insurgency, why is that legitimacy denied to the Palestinians? You answer appears to be a carefully sculpted definition of “terrorism” that gracefully exempts Israeli insurgents from any charge of terrorism, hence, you have no need to explain any discrepancy. It has little or nothing to do with whether or not “…Israel refused to negotiate until violence ceased…”, so any rebuttal of that point is irrelevant the question asked. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/376 "2010-03-18T01:52:30Z")
Just stopped by to see if the [del]combatants[/del] contributors in this thread had reached a consensus yet on avenues to Mideast peace. Doesn’t seem like it. My own feeling on this particular brouhaha is that the Israeli action in announcing new home construction in East Jerusalem during Biden’s visit _was_ an insult to the U.S and significantly detracted from peace efforts - and that the U.S. would be perfectly justified in sending a further message to Israeli leaders on this score - namely, painful aid sanctions until such construction plans are derailed. Penalties of this sort are justifiable [no matter who](http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/02/eu-aid-paying-for-anti-semitic-hatred-in-palestinian-authority-schools-and-media.html) is misusing the support of their allies. It also strikes me that if you are frustrated with the inability to swing someone ( **Finn** for example) to your point of view, attacking them personally is an excellent indicator that your powers of logic and persuasion stink. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/377 "2010-03-18T01:53:24Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Is there really a “crises” between the USA and Israel? I’m not buying it. Diplomatic hand-slapping notwithstanding, Israel has been and will remain a staunch ally of the US, and the US a staunch ally of Israel. > > This seems so overblown to me. Just curious if anyone feels the same way. I think moderator intervention squashed my question. > [@tomndebb](#): > > !! > > \*\*Warnings issued. > > [/Moderating]\*\* Tom, I don’t know you from squat but some of these are pretty lame. I know, I know, ATMB, but…still. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/378 "2010-03-18T02:02:37Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Oversimplified, the question is if it was legitimate for Israel to use terroristic methods to achieve the goals of insurgency, why is that legitimacy denied to the Palestinians? [/QUOTE] Ah…was that the question? Hell, why didn’t you just say so…that’s an easy one. Israel didn’t exist as a country when said ‘terroristic methods’ were used…and the main groups involved (as well as Israel when it DID get around to becoming a country) denounced the groups responsible for them and pretty much reined them in, marginalizing and curtailing the groups who used them. Further, you may have had a point, oh, say 60 odd years ago, that the Palestinian’s could reply in kind to such tactics (leaving aside who burned down who’s castle in the swamp first, or who was responding to attacks on their civilian population first). Today, not so much. _brightly_ Hope that cleared everything up. Can we move on now? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/379 "2010-03-18T02:10:08Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Is there really a “crises” between the USA and Israel? […] > > Just curious if anyone feels the same way. Apparently [Hillary Clinton does](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1156807.html): > [@](#): > > Clinton dismisses suggestions of crisis in Israel ties > > In her remarks on Tuesday, Clinton said that Israel must prove it is committment, but brushed aside suggestions that U.S.-Israeli relations are in crisis. > > U.S. and Israeli officials are in intense talks over “steps that we think would demonstrate the requisite commitment to the process,” said Clinton. They say they’re waiting on Israel to respond: > [@](#): > > Clinton last week made specific demands of Netanyahu about the housing project and about showing commitment to U.S.-mediated indirect peace talks, the State Department has said. > > “We do expect to have the Israeli response shortly,” State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters on Tuesday. “I would anticipate that, you know, very soon there is likely going to be a conversation between the secretary and Prime Minister Netanyahu.” > > Crowley said he was “not forecasting that’ll happen today,” but did expect the conversation to occur sometime this week." The “specific demands” were [described](http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/03/16/1011131/mitchell-postpones-visit-to-israel) in an article from yesterday: > [@](#): > > The demands include reversing the approval of the construction plan for the Ramat Shlomo neighborhood, a “substantial” good-will gesture toward the Palestinians such as releasing Palestinian prisoners, and agreeing publicly to discuss all core issues, including the status of Jerusalem, in upcoming peace talks. One demand, that Israel apologize for embarrassing Vice President Joe Biden in last week’s incident, has been met. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/380 "2010-03-18T02:17:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yep, same question asked and answered multiple times, sames mistakes pointed out multiple times. > > As for your repeated error that the partition plan created Israel, yep, cleared up that mistake too. > > Like I said “Not only did I answer, I proved that you were factually incorrect, yet again.” > > You are repeating a question whose premises have been shown to be false-to-facts and whose punchline has been shown to have nothing to do with anything that’s been said anywhere. Acknowledging the factual errors, correct them, and then see if there’s anything to base a question on. As it’s related, you might also want to correct your massive factual error when you claimed that Israel refused to negotiate until violence ceased when in fact some of the most significant (and well known) spates of negotiation occurred when violence was steadily and profoundly escalating against Israel. Especially since you used that factual error to prop up the bogus bit of your question (based on something nobody said anywhere) as to whether or not it would somehow be wrong to negotiate until all violence was stopped. > > If you ask a question that isn’t predicated on factual error, strawmanning and non-sequitor, it might even be possible to answer it. As it stands now, it deserves as much of an answer as “So have you stopped beating your wife?” You say " partition the land so that two ethnic groups could achieve self determination." and I say “the UN decided to give Israel a state” or words to that effect. The bottom line is it was the UN partition decision in 1947 that was the legal basis for the formation of the state of Israel. If the international community via the UN hadn’t agreed to any partition then any Israeli state would have had no legal basis. So you’re just dodging around trying to avoid answering the question, aren’t you? If you ever get round to answering the question I’ll post a bunch of links showing Sharon, Netanyahu (first time around) Peres etc. all saying no negotiations without an end to terrorism. But answer the question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=20)