# Israel and the USA-Why Does This Farce Continue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387 "2010-03-13T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/81 "2010-03-15T00:41:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And _any number of particulars may prevent sides from agreeing to a peace deal, but only actual violence actually makes peace impossible, by tautological necessity._ So the Palestinians should be denied a state or any form of settlement until there’s no more terrorism? There can be no reward in the form of peace or any kind of state to a people who continue to use terrorism as a negotiating tactic? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/82 "2010-03-15T00:58:10Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Are you suggesting the arguments of staunch fanatics are as worthy of debate as those of the reasonably educated neutral? So, you are declaring that your posts–coming from a fanatic–are not worthy of response? Because I do not see any difference in perspective (relative to position) between your posts and your claims regarding those of **FinnAgain**. EVERYONE: If you have to resort to personal shots, then take it to the Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/83 "2010-03-15T01:22:26Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Israel usually receives roughly one third of the entire foreign aid budget, despite the fact that Israel comprises less than .001 of the worldÿs population and already has one of the world’s higher per capita incomes. Israel now receives 0% of foreign aid if you consider only economic aid. The military aid provided is only aid in a technical sense: it’s much more about strategy than compassion. We’re basically giving military capacity to Western Outpost #1, an outpost that we helped to set up, and which has been attacked many times by its neighbours. If we didn’t help arm Israel, maybe we’d eventually end up helping to defend the nation at extreme cost. Even the most extreme inflation-corrected estimates for lifetime US aid to Israel are a fraction of what the Iraq invasion has cost. Let alone the lifetime costs of our dealings with Iraq. This may be an overly simplistic account of the situation: I don’t claim to be an expert. I’m just putting the obvious arguments against earlier implications that we’re sending mountains of cash to a rich country because of…well, the rapture and ting. > [@](#): > > Congress also exempts Israel from the usual requirement that all its military aid be spent on US hardware. The exemption, which allows Israel to spend about 25 percent of US military aid within its own defense industry, has helped make Israel one of the largest arms exporters in the world. Again, this may benefit the US too as Israel has agreements in place to share its technology with the US. This may be how this exception was wrangled. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/84 "2010-03-15T01:35:00Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > So funding has come up a lot in this thread, with claims that we’re funding settlement building even as Americans don’t have jobs blah blah. > > It should be noted that **most** of the US aid to Israel is military aid. This is not completely altruistic; it provides jobs in america, and Israel has collaborated on various technologies. (bolding mine) This is NOT true! ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/85 "2010-03-15T01:41:14Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > This is not completely altruistic; it provides jobs in america, and Israel has collaborated on various technologies. Could you highlight these recent collaborations between the U.S and Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/86 "2010-03-15T01:41:54Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > This is NOT true! Yes it is. Here’s a CRS report (in PDF) on US aid to Israel, especially since 2000, has been primarily military aid. [http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/87 "2010-03-15T01:54:18Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Could you highlight these recent collaborations between the U.S and Israel? The US and Israel have, in recent years, collaborated in [missile defense](http://defense-update.com/products/a/arrow3_240509.html), [renewable and alternate energy generation](http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2009/02/doe-israel-update-energy-cooperation-agreement), [water purification](http://www.watercampws.uiuc.edu/index.php?menu_item_id=114), [Alzheimers and Parkinsons research](http://news.rutgers.edu/medrel/news-releases/2008/06/us-israeli-palestini-20080616), and [IT](http://archive.globes.co.il/searchgl/US,%20Israel%20expand%20high-tech%20collaboration_h_hd_2L34nE3KoC5mnC30mDJ8oE30pBcXqRMm0.html), for just a few examples. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/88 "2010-03-15T01:55:52Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Could you highlight these recent collaborations between the U.S and Israel? e.g. [The Arrow missile defence system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_(missile)) [Bradley reactive armour tiles](http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/gdrafaels-reactive-armor-equips-us-military-updated-02451/) [The Litening Pod (a target and navigation system for aircraft)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LITENING_targeting_pod) [Various medical equipment, used by US soldiers](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/29085.php) [The Hunter UAV](http://www.army-technology.com/projects/hunter/) This was just from a minute’s googling. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/89 "2010-03-15T02:01:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You are aware that the ad hominem fallacy isn’t called a fallacy because it’s a really great argument, right? OTOH, it’s not always a fallacy. The most important piece of information in any message is usually the name of the messenger. [My thread is my cite.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=405245) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/90 "2010-03-15T02:13:24Z")
If you can demonstrate that your rhetorical opponent is a Cretan, and since we all know that Cretans invariably lie, then demonstrating that fact is still an \*ad hominem \*argument. _But_ legit, since Cretans always lie. Demonstrating that your opponent is a cretin is entirely reserved for him, and you should not offer any resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/91 "2010-03-15T02:14:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Yes it is. Here’s a CRS report (in PDF) on US aid to Israel, especially since 2000, has been primarily military aid. > > [http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf) Wait, I’m bad at math. Double check me, here: So based on your link (See CRS-18), the U.S has provided 100 trillion (101,190 million) dollars to Israel and slightly more than half of that 53 trillion (53,643 million) has is for defense. Someone check my math? _What does 100,000 million equal_? I didn’t even know we had trillions of dollars to give. Even if my math is wrong (which it likely is), defense spending makes up ever-so-slightly more than half of U.S aid to Israel. The other half is spent on building a Rabin museum in Tel Aviv University and other frivilous shit that’s not defense related. The article also talks about how the U.S is providing weaponry to Israel and Israel is selling it to China (See CRS-9 from your link) and comitting warcrimes (See CRS-7 from your link). I think like this. If Israel can’t do what the U.S says (stop building settlements, stop spying on us, stop beating the Palestinians on the head, etc etc) then why should the U.S still cough up money? Please answer that for me. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/92 "2010-03-15T02:16:05Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > e.g. > > [The Arrow missile defence system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_(missile)) > [Bradley reactive armour tiles](http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/gdrafaels-reactive-armor-equips-us-military-updated-02451/) > [The Litening Pod (a target and navigation system for aircraft)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LITENING_targeting_pod) > [Various medical equipment, used by US soldiers](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/29085.php) > [The Hunter UAV](http://www.army-technology.com/projects/hunter/) > > This was just from a minute’s googling. Cool. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Wordy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/4491bb/32.png) [@Wordy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wordy)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/93 "2010-03-15T02:17:34Z")
It’s kinda obvious what’s going on here: The Kesset is getting kickbacks from the Israeli construction and arms industry for each house built or each weapon bought. Netanyahu doesn’t want to lose the gravy train. That and the fact that he is a complete racist. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/94 "2010-03-15T02:51:17Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Wait, I’m bad at math. Double check me, here: So based on your link (See CRS-18), the U.S has provided 100 trillion (101,190 million) dollars to Israel and slightly more than half of that 53 trillion (53,643 million) has is for defense. Someone check my math? _What does 100,000 million equal_? I didn’t even know we had trillions of dollars to give. 100,000 million equals 100 billion, not 100 trillion. > [@](#): > > Even if my math is wrong (which it likely is), defense spending makes up ever-so-slightly more than half of U.S aid to Israel. The other half is spent on building a Rabin museum in Tel Aviv University and other frivilous shit that’s not defense related. The article also talks about how the U.S is providing weaponry to Israel and Israel is selling it to China (See CRS-9 from your link) and comitting warcrimes (See CRS-7 from your link). I think like this. If Israel can’t do what the U.S says (stop building settlements, stop spying on us, stop beating the Palestinians on the head, etc etc) then why should the U.S still cough up money? Please answer that for me. First of all, if you look at the aid, you’ll see that in recent years, it’s primarily military aid. The US provided economic aid in the past, but hasn’t much recently. And I’m not seeing any evidence of war crimes, although the article does mention that Israel occasionally used the weapons in ways that may have violated US-Israeli agreements, as well as some sales to China, which Israel shouldn’t have done. And I don’t see any mention in there of a Rabin museum. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/95 "2010-03-15T02:57:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > . . . and since we all know that Cretans invariably lie . . . Indeed we do, for if you can’t trust [Epimenides the Cretan,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides_paradox) who can you trust? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/96 "2010-03-15T03:02:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > 100,000 million equals 100 billion, not 100 trillion. Unless you’re using the [long scale,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales) in which 100,000 million is simply 100,000 million. (Not sure which scale they use in Israel.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Facts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@The\_Facts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Facts)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/97 "2010-03-15T03:23:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ahhh, good, the old fashioned Conspiracy Theory. Of course, there’s the massive influence of petrodollars and the cushy positions granted to those friendly with the Saudis upon retirement, and such. But, no, it’s traitorous Dual Loyalty bastards who’ve occupied America’s government in the name of Zionism. The Saudis have nothing to do with it. I’m sure they try to buy votes, too. But they don’t need money. The Israelis do, so they invest money in lobbying for ever-more aid. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/98 "2010-03-15T03:35:50Z")
Just because its military aid does not negate the fact that it is aid. Those military devices we’re exporting have real utility to Israel’s treasury because money is a fungible thing. What they don’t spend on tanks they can spend on crap like this. Such military devices would also have real utility in our own armed forces and make them better armed or else reduce the cost of fielding a force of a given capability. Yes, this may provide some small benefit to our defense industry, but to suppose that such a benefit would outweigh the aid would to fall victim to the broken window fallacy of economics. Finally, there are plenty of “stimulus projects,” we could spend such money on in our own nation such as infrastructure projects or basic science research and get the dual benefit of the project as well as any dubious, “economic multiplier,” effects. I’d prefer to spend the money internally or own our own armed forces, and poor behavior such as this makes me feel particularly uncharitable towards Israel. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/99 "2010-03-15T03:42:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you’re honestly curious, ask me in PM. I’m sick to death of threads like this being opened up to vile non-truths from people who can’t seem to find the Pit. I think I probably decided I had enough of it in one thread where I not only criticized a specific policy but spoke about a sweeping American punishment that should result if it wasn’t ended, and one of the usual suspects then chimed in with the common, shall we say, error, that I always support Israel no matter what and believe they can do no wrong. I’d like to see your open criticism of Israel and its anti-American doings (if any) posted here, thanks. If you can please. No snark…I’m honestly trying to form a POV and you asking me to PM you about it is kinda…lame. I’ve seen your exhaustive efforts on here before, but I’ve never asked you this question, either. Please indulge me. Address my post upthread in its entirety if you could. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/100 "2010-03-15T04:10:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > 100,000 million equals 100 billion, not 100 trillion. Thanks for the math, rescue! 🙂 100 billion is still a lot of dough, especially when Congress is bickering over a bill that’s less than a tenth of the aid we’ve given to Israel. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > And I don’t see any mention in there of a Rabin museum. Sorry, I was referring to this [link](http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/47088.pdf) which details actual expenditures. Here’s a few: [ul] [li]$600,000,000 in economic aid (2003)[/li][li]$4,970,500 for a Yitzhak Rabin Center for Israel Studies in Tel Aviv (2004)[/li][li]$4,970,500 for Center for Human Dignity Museum of Tolerance in Jerusalem (2004)[/li][li]$49,705,000 for settling migrants in Israel (2004)[/li][li]$9,000,000,000 in loan guarantees (2003) (From FY1974 through FY2003,[/li][li]Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans)[/li][/ul] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=6)