# Israel and the USA-Why Does This Farce Continue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387 "2010-03-13T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/141 "2010-03-15T17:37:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That we don’t simplify complex situations? That you use such excuses to avoid accepting responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/142 "2010-03-15T17:44:05Z")
Irony is delicious. Elvis imagines an alternate reality in which someone demands unilateral surrender as a precondition for negotiations, and then turns around and, in actual reality, states that a spectrum of views about what land (that was never Palestinian in the first place) is important to hold and what should be negotiated for is “responsible” for problems. Obviously implying that the only way to not be ‘responsible’ for those problems is to unilaterally agree to all of the PA’s demands and give them whatever land they want, whether or not they have any valid claim to it. It’d be amusing if it wasn’t quite so… odd. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/143 "2010-03-15T17:44:36Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > ``` > *Originally Posted by **FinnAgain** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12225004#post12225004) > > ``` > > No, note that I’ve said ‘ongoing’ violence, not ‘sporadic’ or what have you. If I sign a peace treaty with you and your nation’s radicals (or members of government, whatever) continue to bomb me, then it was a peace deal in name only. And unless there is a credible reason to believe that violence will stop, there’s no reason to come to a peace deal if all it means is that you give certain concessions while you go on being bombed. \* > > So there can be no negotiations with a people who use terrorism as part of their strategy for attaining their own state? > > This is the second time I’ve asked you this. You can answer this any time now. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/144 "2010-03-15T17:46:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **Finn** , perhaps you could give **Dick** a response? An adult one, if you can manage it. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Awww Elvis, that’s cute, would you like to imagine anything else and pretend I said that, too? Come on, really go nuts, why stick to small bits of imagination? Why not “Finn drinks baby blood!” or “Finn wants to release anthrax into Ramallah!” > > Come up Elvis, if you’re going to imagine something, imagine something _really_ shocking. Both of you tone it down. **ElvisL1ves** , please leave the personal digs out of your dealings with other posters; **FinnAgain** , please refrain from implying other posters are lying anti-Semites. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/145 "2010-03-15T17:51:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That you use such excuses to avoid accepting responsibility. What do you expect me to say - that it’s the vast majority of Israelis who don’t support a full retreat to the Green Line who are the problem? Maybe it is to you. But that’s not going to change. I know that plenty of Americans expect foreigners to change their beliefs to suit American purposes, but that hasn’t happened in Afghanistan, it hasn’t happened in Iraq, and it won’t happen in Israel. Hell, you guys can’t even convince your own country to accept a no-brainer like government health care - the kind of thing only a complete idiot would oppose - and you expect \*us \*to change \*our \*deeply-held beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/146 "2010-03-15T17:57:13Z")
Hillary reportedly called Netanyahu and chewed him out for 45 minutes. That could not have been pleasant. I think it was made clear to him that Obama is not some kind of pussy who’s going to let himself (and the US) get punked like this. Israel’s tone changed from one of the usual arrogant dismissiveness to near-abject contrition pretty quickly. I think they needed to be reminded who the sugar daddy was here. Without the good will (and financial largesse) of the US, there is no Israel. Israel is a cute little American project that can be abandoned at any time. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/147 "2010-03-15T18:01:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **FinnAgain** , please refrain from implying other posters are lying anti-Semites. I didn’t imply he was an anti-semite, and I don’t know where you’re getting that. But please tell me what options are open to me when people simply invent positions and claim I hold them? Seriously. What verbiage is acceptable for me to point out that people are inventing positions that I do not hold and then assigning them to me? If I’m not allowed to “imply” that their statements are fictional, how then can I point out when people make claims about me that are fictional? Or are people simply allowed to make stuff up about me if they’d like? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/148 "2010-03-15T18:05:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What do you expect me to say - that it’s the vast majority of Israelis who don’t support a full retreat to the Green Line who are the problem? Essentially, yes. But add to that the overarching attitude you report, that it’s perfectly to continue to expand the occupation into land that could have been that of a peaceful neighbor’s, in the quest for _lebensraum_. They lost, fuck 'em, let 'em go away, not our problem, right? > [@](#): > > I know that plenty of Americans expect foreigners to change their beliefs to suit American purposes, but that hasn’t happened in Afghanistan, it hasn’t happened in Iraq, and it won’t happen in Israel. Then you have no right to continue to expect subsidization from anybody else. A responsible approach would involve being aware of the reasons you’re being told by so many, many others how wrong you are. If you won’t do that, you’ve chosen yet more generations of war instead. That’s no one else’s fault but yours. Good luck surviving on only your own resources, and may God have mercy on your souls. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/149 "2010-03-15T18:07:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Hillary reportedly called Netanyahu and chewed him out for 45 minutes. That could not have been pleasant. I think it was made clear to him that Obama is not some kind of pussy who’s going to let himself (and the US) get punked like this. Israel’s tone changed from one of the usual arrogant dismissiveness to near-abject contrition pretty quickly. I think they needed to be reminded who the sugar daddy was here. Without the good will (and financial largesse) of the US, there is no Israel. Israel is a cute little American project that can be abandoned at any time. First of all, Israel did fine before the U.S. started supporting it and will do fine if it stops. It’s the rest of the region that will suffer if we start feeling less secure. Second of all, have you noticed that basically the only country in the world Obama has been putting any pressure on is Israel? Sure, he can pick on us to “prove” he isn’t a pussy, and then get right back to sucking up to just about everyone else. We’re an easy target, because he knows we won’t fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/150 "2010-03-15T18:10:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I didn’t imply he was an anti-semite, and I don’t know where you’re getting that. "Why not “Finn drinks baby blood!” sounded like a bordeline blood libel comment. If that wasn’t your intent, fine, but it’s still a provocation that does nothing to further the debate. Other posters shouldn’t misrepresent your arguments, and you shouldn’t misrepresent theirs. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/151 "2010-03-15T18:13:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > First of all, Israel did fine before the U.S. started supporting it Huh? When was that? > [@](#): > > It’s the rest of the region that will suffer if we start feeling less secure. As compared to today? Really? > [@](#): > > Second of all, have you noticed that basically the only country in the world Obama has been putting any pressure on is Israel? No. :D:D:D Cite? > [@](#): > > Sure, he can pick on us to “prove” he isn’t a pussy, and then get right back to sucking up to just about everyone else. We’re an easy target, because he knows we won’t fight back. Or maybe he’s trying to promote peace, and is working on the obstacles to it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/152 "2010-03-15T18:15:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Essentially, yes. But add to that the overarching attitude you report, that it’s perfectly to continue to expand the occupation into land that could have been that of a peaceful neighbor’s, in the quest for _lebensraum_. They lost, fuck 'em, let 'em go away, not our problem, right? No. The actual Israeli attitude - and not your straw man - is twofold: First, that there are 250,000 Jews in the West Bank, and we can neither force them all out nor can we abandon them. The first is physically impossible, and the second goes against our nation’s most fundamental principles. Second, that most Israelis believe that the Palestinians, and the Muslim world as a whole, will not give us peace even if we withdraw from all of the territories, and that they will continue to attack us until they’ve destroyed us completely. In other words, most Israeli believe that full withdrawal is (a) impossible and (b) pointless. Can you prove us wrong? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/153 "2010-03-15T18:21:54Z")
> [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](#): > > I’m probably one of the most leftist Israelis I know. I think we should completely evacuate all the Jews in the West Bank just like we did with Gaza. I think Israeli military operations injure and kill far too many civilians and that the bulldozing of houses is despicable. I think Israel oversteps it’s bounds a lot in the territories and has too happy of a trigger-finger around Palestinians. > Nonetheless, has anyone here been to the site of the proposed “settlement”? It’s pretty much staunchly in Jerusalem, just like the Gilo “settlement” BS a few weeks ago. It’s in a residential area with buildings that have been there for 40+ years. It’s just a regular construction project. They’re not building in West Bank proper, they’re not taking anyone’s private land, and its in an area that is definitely Jerusalem. > > There is NO way Israel will ever give back East Jerusalem. When Jerusalem belonged to Jordan, Jews were not allowed into our holiest city. Now, under the control of Israel, Muslims are allowed into the city to pray, as are Jews and Christians. If a Jew even steps foot near the Temple Mount, the Palestinians freak out and it becomes a big fiasco. Despite the fact that it’s also holy to Jews, but hey, Mohammed went to heaven there, so now no Jews are allowed. East Jerusalem is a part of a municipal city, with a full infrastructure, bus routes, schools and hospitals. Seriously, building new apartments is NOT that big a deal, unless you’re from the point of view that a solution will ever involve giving up Jerusalem, which will NEVER happen. West Bank and Gaza, sure, but Jerusalem is Israel’s capital. Personally I’d be fine with palestinians coming to Jerusalem to pray, but Jerusalem cannot be under Palestinian control. It would be a huge clusterfuck. > [@Alessan](#): > > I think the previous poister proves a point that made to be made: while many foreigners see no difference between the different types of West Bank settlements, to Israelis these distinctions are crucial. Isolated hilltop trailers are not the same as “deep” settlements like Tapuach, which are not the same as “established” settlements like Ariel, which are not the same as Jordan Valley settlements like Maskiyot, which are not the same as Green Line settlements like Betar Elite, which are not the same as East Jerusalem. Each Israeli - and each Israeli political party - has his own line as far as the differnt types are concerned. > > I don’t expect the White House to distinguish between these various catergories, although they should. What troubles me is that they don’t seem aware of the fact that these distinctions are important _to Israelis_, both in the political system and among the general public. By treating the settlements around which there is the most consensus (like E. J-lem) in exactly the same manner as they would two trailers and a goat in the Samarian mountains, the only thing they’ve managed to do is rally the Israeli public against them - and without the support of the Israeli public, there will be no peace process. Israeli politicians are far more afraid of their voters than they are of the U.S. > > It’s the same kind of willful ignorance Washington has always displayed towards the Middle East. Remeber how the previous administration couldn’t tell the difference between Sunnis and Shi’ites? This is pretty much the same thing. Interesting. Thanks guys. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > What are your views on South Korea, Ralph? PM him a response **Ralph** , as it really isn’t relevant to the OP… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/154 "2010-03-15T18:22:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Huh? When was that? > . 1948 to 1970 or so. In fact, now that the Arabs don’t have the Soviet Block to arm them, we need the U.S. even less. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As compared to today? Really? > . Oh, things can get a lot worse. Israelis could be killing as many Muslims as the U.S. is. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or maybe he’s trying to promote peace, and is working on the obstacles to it. You know what president made a lot of progress with peace in the Middle East? Bill Clinton. You know why? Because we \*liked \*him. We liked Bubba more than we liked most of our own Prime Ministers at the time. Whenever he criticized them a lot of us were on his side. But Obama? Dude won’t even talk to us. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/155 "2010-03-15T18:27:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > First of all, Israel did fine before the U.S. started supporting it and will do fine if it stops. It’s the rest of the region that will suffer if we start feeling less secure. > > Second of all, have you noticed that basically the only country in the world Obama has been putting any pressure on is Israel? Sure, he can pick on us to “prove” he isn’t a pussy, and then get right back to sucking up to just about everyone else. We’re an easy target, because he knows we won’t fight back. Who has Obama “sucked up to” (unless sending predator drones into Pakistan counts as “sucking up”), and how has he “picked on” Israel? Biden went there to praise Israel and proclaim US support, not to pick on you, and you guys pissed in our faces. What makes you think you can keep giving us the back of your hand like that and still expect us to keep picking up your checks? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/156 "2010-03-15T18:34:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No. The actual Israeli attitude - and not your straw man - is twofold: > > First, that there are 250,000 Jews in the West Bank, and we can neither force them all out nor can we abandon them. The first is physically impossible, and the second goes against our nation’s most fundamental principles. What principle is that, racial entitlement? > [@](#): > > Second, that most Israelis believe that the Palestinians, and the Muslim world as a whole, will not give us peace even if we withdraw from all of the territories, and that they will continue to attack us until they’ve destroyed us completely. This strikes a lot of us over here as a rather conveniently unfalsifiable and self-justifying belief. > [@](#): > > In other words, most Israeli believe that full withdrawal is (a) impossible and (b) pointless. Can you prove us wrong? You can at least stop expanding, and stop actively supporting new settlements (I know that this current project isn’t technically a settlement, I’m just saying in general). What do you envision happening to the Palestinians in a best-case scenario. Where are they supposed to go if Israel keeps expanding indefinitely? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/157 "2010-03-15T18:42:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > 1948 to 1970 or so. Fine, let’s go back to 1970, when Israelis themselves were still working toward a two-state solution. > [@](#): > > In fact, now that the Arabs don’t have the Soviet Block to arm them, we need the U.S. even less. Fine. Let’s zero out the subsidy. > [@](#): > > Oh, things can get a lot worse. Israelis could be killing as many Muslims as the U.S. is. Leaving the tu quoque aside, what the hell do you think that would accomplish for anyone? Is that something you really propose as a plausible approach? If not, what do you want that real people might be willing to work with you on? > [@](#): > > You know what president made a lot of progress with peace in the Middle East? Bill Clinton. You know why? Because we \*liked \*him. We liked Bubba more than we liked most of our own Prime Ministers at the time. Whenever he criticized them a lot of us were on his side. Clinton had that skill with everyone who wasn’t already bitterly opposed to his party, and it was one of his greatest assets, no question. So? > [@](#): > > But Obama? Dude won’t even talk to us. What was Biden doing over there, then? Just wasting his time, because Israel won’t listen to anybody but the Leader of the Free World himself in person, and not his #2? The President has nothing better to do with his time? Get over yourselves already. As for your earlier post, I don’t say this often, but **Dio** answered it as I would have. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/158 "2010-03-15T18:49:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > 1948 to 1970 or so. > You know what president made a lot of progress with peace in the Middle East? Bill Clinton. You know why? Because we \*liked \*him. We liked Bubba more than we liked most of our own Prime Ministers at the time. Whenever he criticized them a lot of us were on his side. ``` Huh? What progress did Bill Clinton make when it comes to Middle East peace? The whole situation was blowing apart just as he left office. The US Presidents who made progress in the Middle East were Jimmy Carter and George HW Bush both of whom put serious pressure on Israel. Come to think of it, you could also put Eisenhower on that list. ``` I will agree that I don’t think Israel needs the US for its survival though for some reason this is widely believed both by supporters and critics of Israel. What the US does do is provide Israel the financial and diplomatic cushion to pursue its expansionist fantasies in the occupied territories, something which benefits neither the US nor in the long run Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/159 "2010-03-15T18:50:52Z")
[Netanyahu is trading Israeli security for right-wing ideology](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1156260.html) > [@](#): > > Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has led Israel into a serious crisis in relations with the United States and to a collapse in peace talks with the Palestinians just when they were to be resumed. > > A year after he took office, it is apparent that his government’s policies, which made it top priority to populate East Jerusalem with Jews, is leading to Israel’s increasing international isolation and threatening its key security interests in the name of an extreme right-wing ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387/160 "2010-03-15T18:54:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What principle is that, racial entitlement? The principle is not standing by when Jews get slaughtered, and not abandoning its citizens to its enemies. **Alessan** is right in that there’s no way that Israel will ever abandon the settlers to Palestinian jurisdiction, no matter what government is in there and how they feel about peace. A government that tried that would be lucky to escape lynching. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-and-the-usa-why-does-this-farce-continue/532387.md?page=9)