Israel and the USA-Why Does This Farce Continue?

I believe I already pointed out that Israel has claimed that 181 formed the basis of its legitimate statehood. But that was also post facto and, as I’ve pointed out, 181 didn’t do anything, wasn’t enforced, didn’t inform the final geography, etc… Nor is there any evidence that, if the British dropped their control of the mandate and there was no UN vote, that once a nation of Israel was set up with fully functioning administrative services that could fulfill the role of a sovereign, that nations that were willing to recognize it in '47 would not have done so in '48 sans 181. Nor, I should point out, would the war of '48 have been different without 181 or that Israel wouldn’t have declared independence without 181. If there had been no 181, Israel would have just claimed something else as the basis for its existence.

We should also remember that 181 was, again, non-binding, and non-binding suggestions do not have the force of law. And, as well, it served to set up a contract between the two parties and one side rejected it, meaning there was no contract. And so on.

That is the objection. People often like to claim that the international community “created” Israel. But it didn’t. The sovereign power of the region pulled out, the Arabs invaded, and the war created Israel. That’s the simple fact. Those who claim otherwise are obligated to show what 181 actually did… but since it did nothing there’s not much to show. People can claim it gave legitimacy to Israel’s foundation, but that’s also a dodge, as it ignores the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations’ mandate for close Jewish settlement in the first place. Why ignore two (equally meaningless) bits of words while claiming that the third was what really did it?

Further, we’ve seen numerous nations arise without specific UN sanction, yes?

But again, you need to look at Dick’s actual question and its numerous errors.

It’s set up, in the first place, to try to equate “Jewish terrorism” (condemned and not supported by the official Jewish governing body or its armed forced) with PNA sponsored/led/allowed terrorism. He’s trying to claim that the partition was about setting up a Jewish state in spite of terrorism, when in fact it was about setting up a quasi-federated union of a Jewish and Arab state, each interconnected and forming an economic union, while one side did not officially use terrorism and the other’s leadership was allied with the Nazis to commit genocide and whose military alliance of Arab states announced a war of annihilation (predictably, Dick is also only asking the question as to whether or not Israel should have been ‘created’ by 181, not if Palestine should have as well). The question also aims at a gotchaya! by alleging that Israel claimed that all Palestinian violence (note Dick’s use of “Jewish violence” instead of “Irgun violence”) must stop, rather than that the PNA fulfill its treaty obligations and stop allowing, encouraging and/or engaging in terrorism.

His error on what 181 was and what it did is only one part of the problem with his question.

Allied with what Nazis? The ones who had fled to Argentina, or the ones hiding in Germany? And are we to believe that “official” terrorism is somehow fundamentally distinct? A pity the victims families were not advised as to the non-official status, they would no doubt have been much more accepting.

“What’s that? Not official terrorism? Well, that’s very different, never mind…”

Hardly hairsplitting at all. In 1949, there was no Palestinian state to recognize. After that… the 1947 resolution wasn’t open ended; it stated that the Palestine should be divided *right now *into two separate countries, not that two countries have to exist in Palestine at some point in the future. In other words, it applied to 1947, not to 1967. A UN decision is applicable to specific circumstances in a specific place and time - once the circumstances change, a new decision is required.

Besides, the 1947 resolution wasn’t really for the actual Jews and Arabs living here - it was for the British, who were occupying the country at the time. The Jews and Arabs weren’t really asked, and their consent wasn’t required.

**wmfellows **- if Israel’s legitimacy isn’t an issue, then why are we discussing it? Why does every GD thread even remotely connected to Israel always devolve to a discussion of the events of 1948?

Can you see why it makes Israelis so paranoid? In our own eyes, we’re as legitimate and permanent a nation as France and Japan. As soon as people start challenging that, is it so surprising that we instantly go into Bunker Mode?

Well, it all depends what we mean by legitimacy. I think a number of people are talking about legitimacy in terms of West Bank. Sure there are some who are talking the whole kit and kaboodle, but really they’re marginal. At least as far as I can see in terms of actual real life influence.

I can see, but I also see that some things you perceive as “special” are not in fact.

Eluci, this is a fun-house mirror game of hair-splitting, twisting, partial facts, etc. Best to ignore.

We’ve gone over that at length in this thread. Look for the Spiegel article I cited which documents the independent research of two separate German historians. Look at the facts of the Grand Mufti’s alliance with Hitler and the Nazis. This has all been cited and quoted already. If you have an objection, why don’t you point out what you disagree with in the facts and why?

If we are to look at the facts at least passingly accurately, yes. If not, then no.
The United States government, for instance, did not blow up the Oklahoma City Federal Building. If some rancher in Texas shoots a Mexican crossing the border, that doesn’t mean that the US has declared war on Mexico. This is basic.

And as pointed out so many times, Dick’s question itself is a gotchaya! designed to conflate terrorism that the official Jewish government and military were opposed to with PNA sanctioned/executed/allowed terrorism, while using another false-to-facts claim that while Israel agreed to the Tenet Proposal which only called for the PNA to make an attempt to limit terrorism and to not have their own forces engage in terrorism, that really the Israelis were maintaining that any “Palestinian violence” (in echo to Dick’s construction of “Jewish violence”) would mean an end to negotiations.

Is the goal of the gotchaya! really that occult? The next step is “Ah-hah! If the UN should have voted for the partition even though non-official groups committed terrorism and were opposed by the official groups, then obviously Israel is wrong to demand that the official governing body of the Palestinians stop endorsing, condoning and engaging in terrorism! QED!!!”
*
That’s the point.*

Because negotiation with Palestinians is supposedly out of the question because they are terrorists.

The usual and logical reply is : So there shouldn’t have been any negotiation with the Jews when they were the terrorists?

Hey presto!

Yes, that’s the fallacious comparison and the gotchaya! that I was referring to. Thanks for making it totally explicit.

As already cited and quoted, the demands have been that the PNA fulfill its treaty obligations and crack down on terrorism and not support terrorism. Not that “The Palestinians” “are terrorists”, so there can be no negotiation, but that their governing body and its official military forces must not engage in terrorism and must make real steps to stop terrorism.
Using your set of errors as a starting point, someone then gets to claiming that “the Jews” “were the terrorists”, ignoring again that the official governing body of the proto-Israel state and its official military forces were not engaged in terrorism and had cooperated with the British to arrest terrorists.

It’s the same reason that Dick has tried to equivocate “PNA sponsored/allowed/directed terrorism” with “any and all terrorism committed by someone who was a Jew.”

That’s the point. It may be the usual reply among certain folks, but it’s not the logical reply. In fact, it’s a reply that distorts both history and current events in order to use a loaded, fallacious question to advance an agenda.

OK, forget the 40s. Let’s forget the 70s too. Let’s talk about the now.

Both sides claim they want peace (at least they do sometimes). Both sides claim they want the fighting and killing to stop (at least they do sometimes). Apparently though, neither side wants to give up anything. Apparently, neither side wants to take the first step, or make the first concession. Apparently neither side wants to give an inch, or meet somewhere in the middle.

So, I guess, neither side wants peace at all, it’s just lip service. From both sides. Palestinian law could come down hard on known terrorits. Don’t they have police there? Israel could come down hard on “squatters”. I know Israel has police. So why don’t they start enforcing the law and punishing the people who instigate and prolong the trouble? I guess they just don’t want to.

looks around at long-assed thread

tentatively steps in

I think the problem here is this: the use of the term “the Jews” and “the Palestinians” in this context.

Neither “the Jews” nor “the Palestinians” are, en mass, involved. Rather, what we have are various organizations whose members happen to be Jews or Palestinians.

The distinction is important to keep in mind.

In 1948, “the Jews” (rather, those Jews who happened to be living in what was then the mandate of Palestine - known as the Yishuv) had for some time possessed its own para-military self-defense force, known as the Haganah. This force, given that its leaders were busy angling for state-hood, and for moral reasons as well, had as its policy (both “officially” and in practice) that they would not sanction or engage in terrorism.

This policy, known as “restraint” (in Hebrew, “havlagah”), was deeply unpopular with some hot-heads. They split away from the haganah and engaged in explicit acts of terrorism, as such groups as the Irgun.

Havlagah - Wikipedia

What followed is what amounted to a nasty sort of mini civil war between the two, known as “The Hunting Season”, where the Haganah actively helped the occupying Brits to put down the Irgun.

The situation is a bit more complex than that, because after beating the Irgun up they later cooperated, only to fall out again - but this is basically it.

Now, fast-forward to today. What the Israelis want is, essentially, for the Palestinians to do exactly what they (the Israelis) did: form a proto-state complete with self-defence forces, making (say) the PLO equivalent to the Haganah; and then, to hunt down (as in “The Hunting Season”) those hot-heads, the Palestinain equivalent of the Irgun, who support terrorism. Indeed, without pragmatists in charge, how can a state be made? If the Irgun had won 'The Hunting Season", there would be no Israeli state today to argue about.

History does indeed have lessons, and the big one is this: those who wish to create their own country (as the Israelis did) in the face of hostility have no choice but to exercise internal discipline over their radicals - in effect, “surpressing terrorists”. The problem with the Palestinians is that, for whatever reasons, they have never succeeded in doing this: indeed the hot-heads appear to have more legitimacy internally than the pragmatic state-builders.

When I say “have no choice” I don’t simply mean that the Israelis, the Americans, the UN, or anyone else demands it - rather that the task of state-building in an inhospitable environment requires it, no matter what anyone may demand. Such a task requires pragmatism, committment and even a certain degree of ruthlessness - for it must appear to be ruthless indeed to hand over “your own” to the enemy for the greater good.

When a Palestinian leadership is found that combines these traits, the Palestinian state will be founded. Unfortunately, that has not happened as of yet.

Indeed and that , dear Finnagain, is why the comparison is fallacious.
Israel doesn’t really want to negotiate.

I see that as a rather odd view. Or rather,a view at odds with what I see.

Uhmm, maybe after the victory, but if history teaches anything it is that violence is the only way to get a country…

No, the reasons Malthus just described in detail (again) are.

I’d also point out that you didn’t address the numerous false analogy fallacies that the Gotchaya! was built on, or why answering it was impossible without fixing them. Would you care to?

No.
Besides, I agree that, from a pragmatic standpoint, Israel doesn’t have anything to gain from negotiating a real peace.

Apart from the occasional killing, no, that’s right. All their expenses are being subsidized by the US taxpayer, anyway, and Daddy isn’t cutting off their allowance (yet), so Israel really isn’t paying anything for maintaining the status quo.

Oslo, Wye, Taba, Camp David, etc…
History falsifies your claim.

In point of fact, Israel armed the PNA’s police, gave the PNA control over the supermajority of its citizens, committed to a series of phased negotiations leading to Final Status talks on settlements, borders, refugees, etc…

What are you referring to, now, is that those were responded to with the deliberate start of the Second Intifada by the PNA itself, which went on to about 2005… at which point Hamas won a major electoral victory, declared all treaties with Israel null and void, declared that they would never accept an Israeli state and that their goal was still to the annihilation of the nation of Israel (and their covenant still called for the genocide of the Jews).

What we are seeing, now, is the resumption of the peace process after Abbas has, indeed, clamped down on much of the ‘hot heads’ in the West Bank coupled with the fact that the terrorist organizations themselves have stated that Israel’s security barrier has made attacks almost impossible. Context, as always, is important.

Is it your claim that illegal (under Israeli law) settlement outposts are never removed? Or that they are not removed often enough?

Indeed, the rest is just words.

Quite a few…

Just to clarify, the question is one that is based on false analogy fallacies with a hidden gotchaya! that aims support an agenda by distorting the facts. You supported it as somehow accurate. Would you either care to give proof or retract?

This is nonsensical.
From a pragmatic standpoint, Israel doesn’t have anything to gain from allowing open borders and trade with the Palestinians, from not having its young men and women patrol dangerous territory in the West Bank, not having to live with the constant risk of suicide bombers, not having to endure international divestment campaigns and ill will, etc…

No pragmatic benefit?
Come on.

No, that they aren’t in Israel.

Come on now.

The question isn’t about pacifism, it’s about terrorism. The problem with terrorism is not that it is nasty, brutish and immoral (though it is all of those), it is that it is destructive of the sort of unified, pragmatic leadership that is capable of gaining legitimacy at home and abroad and pulling off the difficult feat of nation-building.

That isn’t what Israel itself did - it’s legitimate leadership beat up its radicals, created internal unity, gained legitimacy among its own folks and abroad, then gained victory in war. All of these were necessary to some degree, but the most important were - gaining internal control and beating up external enemies. (Conversely the least important was gaining external legitimacy - that’s what the debate over the UN declaration is about: its relative importance).

Consider the Israelis and Palestinians as parallel test cases. Which gained a country and which did not?

World War II ended in 1945, major Nazis were…what is the technical term? oh, right!..dead! Yeah, thats the one, dead. Were they conducting this alliance by means of seance?