# Israel - Democracy or Theocracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937 "2009-02-22T13:04:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/21 "2009-02-22T20:15:12Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I personally believe it is closer to a theocracy than a democracy, but I’m interested in the opinions of the TM. I don’t have much time, but let me pen down a few thoughts: Trying to define Israel’s government is impossible because there isn’t a word for it. Its unique. In my opinion, its not a democracy because those who run for office have to be pro-Jewish and its certainly not a theocracy due to the fact that we’re talking about ethnicity and not religion. In the U.S., an African-American muslim Louis Ferrakhan is notorious for his anti-semitic remarks. Our laws allow him to run for any office he chooses regardless of his beliefs, not so in Israel. If U.S citizen Adam Perlman is captured tomorrow, charged with treason and acquitted, there is no law stopping him from gathering signatures and getting his name on the ballot to hold public office. Many people on this board will try to convince that Israel is just “democratic” as its West. Not. At. All. But even with tax dollars and technology flowing from Washington to Tel Aviv, the region remains light years behind the bar. Consider this. The State declared independence in the late 40’s and, to my knowledge, still hasn’t sat down and formulated a Constitution :smack:. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/22 "2009-02-22T20:37:16Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > In my opinion, its not a democracy because those who run for office have to be pro-Jewish and its certainly not a theocracy due to the fact that we’re talking about ethnicity and not religion. In the U.S., an African-American muslim Louis Ferrakhan is notorious for his anti-semitic remarks. Our laws allow him to run for any office he chooses regardless of his beliefs, not so in Israel. If U.S citizen Adam Perlman is captured tomorrow, charged with treason and acquitted, there is no law stopping him from gathering signatures and getting his name on the ballot to hold public office. Actually, there is: Section 7a of Basic Law: the Knesset. You know, the same law that barred [Meir Kahane](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane). And I’m not sure Farrakahn would be barred, if he were an Israeli citizen. Many Arab candidates (and legislators) have said stuff as “bad” as he has. > [@Honesty](#): > > Many people on this board will try to convince that Israel is just “democratic” as its West. Not. At. All. But even with tax dollars and technology flowing from Washington to Tel Aviv, the region remains light years behind the bar. Consider this. The State declared independence in the late 40’s and, to my knowledge, still hasn’t sat down and formulated a Constitution :smack:. Neither has Britain, and it’s been independent since the last Roman legion left in the 4th Century. As for why we don’t have a constitution - it’s because we like to argue so much. We just can’t seem to agree on one. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/23 "2009-02-22T20:53:33Z")
Anyway, having a constitution is not necessarily something to be proud of. Look at this [list of national constitutions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_constitutions). Some of those countries are real armpits (North Korea, I’m looking at you. You too, Democratic Republic of the Congo). ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/24 "2009-02-22T21:43:14Z")
Simple. Just as you state, a non-Jewish PM? Never. To answer, ask yourself this: Does an Atheist stand a chance? No? Theocracy. Just like the good 'ol US. Obama isn’t Christian, but believes in God, still making many shudder. If he didn’t believe at all, who would risk to nominate him? ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/25 "2009-02-22T21:55:47Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Why would anyone be “proud of being Jewish”? > > It’s not like you had any choice in the matter! I seem to recall the phrase “I’m black, and I’m proud!” but maybe that’s just me. 😉 People just tend to take pride in carrying on the traditions of their heritage. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ETA: **Locrian** , what the heck? Obama is most definitely a Christian. And whether non-Jews (or non-Christians) stand a chance has nothing to do with it being a theocracy, as has already been pointed out. Not to mention that non-religious Jews _have_ in fact been elected PM in Israel. And don’t format your posts like they’re poems; the board software inserts line breaks well enough on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/26 "2009-02-22T22:18:09Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > In my opinion, its not a democracy because those who run for office have to be pro-Jewish What on earth are you talking about? What does that have to do with democracy? > [@Honesty](#): > > Consider this. The State declared independence in the late 40’s and, to my knowledge, still hasn’t sat down and formulated a Constitution :smack: And? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/27 "2009-02-22T22:20:02Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Simple. Just as you state, a non-Jewish PM? Never. > > To answer, ask yourself this: Does an Atheist stand a chance? > No? Theocracy. Just like the good 'ol US. Obama isn’t Christian, > but believes in God, still making many shudder. If he didn’t believe at all, > who would risk to nominate him? 😕 What the hell are you talking about? Israel has had several agnostic PMs. Obama is a Protestant and several of the Founding Fathers were deists. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/28 "2009-02-22T22:35:06Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > In my opinion, its not a democracy because those who run for office have to be pro-Jewish … Huh? > **[United Arab List](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List)** > > The United Arab List (Hebrew: הַרְשִׁימָה הַעֲרָבִית הַמְאוּחֶדֶת, HaReshima HaAravit HaMe'uhedet; Arabic: القائمة العربية الموحدة, al-Qā'ima al-'Arabiyya al-Muwaḥḥada), commonly known by its Hebrew acronym Ra'am (Hebrew: רע"מ, lit. 'Thunder'), is an Islamist and conservative political party in Israel, and the political wing of the Southern Branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel (the Southern Branch is the portion of the Islamic Movement that supported the Oslo I Accord and began participati... > [@](#): > > Many people on this board will try to convince that Israel is just “democratic” as its West. Not. At. All. But even with tax dollars and technology flowing from Washington to Tel Aviv, the region remains light years behind the bar. Consider this. The State declared independence in the late 40’s and, to my knowledge, still hasn’t sat down and formulated a Constitution :smack:. > > - Honesty Canada didn’t repatriate its constitution until 1982. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/29 "2009-02-22T22:37:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Canada didn’t repatriate its constitution until 1982. And the UK still hasn’t done it. I guess we better watch out for Queen Elizabeth II; no telling what new tyranny she’ll inflict on them next. 😛 Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/30 "2009-02-23T00:08:20Z")
“Theocracy” seems like a completely inappropriate descriptor here: as others have pointed out, the concept of theocracy implies that governmental power is directly vested in the dominant religious authority. “Largely secular democracy with some fundamental religious discrimination” is the best I can come up with. The essential idea of Israel as a “Jewish state” means that it is not religiously neutral across the board, even if it forbids religious discrimination in some areas. For example, immigration laws are different for Jews and non-Jews. Laws on mandatory military service are different for Jews and non-Jews. If your definition of “democracy” includes the condition “having a strictly secular government in which the same laws apply equally to all citizens regardless of religious belief”, then no, Israel doesn’t qualify. But that’s a pretty restrictive condition on the definition of “democracy”. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/31 "2009-02-23T00:23:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > …For example, immigration laws are different for Jews and non-Jews. Laws on mandatory military service are different for Jews and non-Jews… This is complicated because Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion. Even if someone ethnically Jewish practices say Christianity, Islam, or Shinto they’d still be allowed to immigrate and be liable for military service. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/32 "2009-02-23T00:42:54Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > In my opinion, its not a democracy because those who run for office have to be pro-Jewish and its certainly not a theocracy due to the fact that we’re talking about ethnicity and not religion. As **Honesty** states, is this how Jews describe themselves? Judaism is an ethnicity and not a religion? Or, as **alphaboi867** states > [@alphaboi867](#): > > This is complicated because Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion. Even if someone ethnically Jewish practices say Christianity, Islam, or Shinto they’d still be allowed to immigrate and be liable for military service. it’s both… So, when Israel is referred to as the Jewish state, what exactly does that mean? As far as the definition of democracy goes, I don’t think the U.S. qualifies. As I understand the definitions, the U.S. is a representative republic. In the strictest sense of the word, I don’t believe any country is a true democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/33 "2009-02-23T00:45:08Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > 😕 What the hell are you talking about? Israel has had several agnostic PMs. Obama is a Protestant and several of the Founding Fathers were deists. I’m very surprised at any ME country having an Agnostic anything in office. Cite, please? And you’re partially agreeing with me. Protestant is not Christian, I said Obama was not Christian. The closest founding father I can name as an agnost is Thomas jefferson, who believed in God, just not religion. Besides, we’re talking about now. Israel - Democracy or Theocracy? Not historical. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/34 "2009-02-23T01:42:41Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Protestant is not Christian, Run that by again? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/35 "2009-02-23T01:42:59Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Protestant is not Christian, I said Obama was not Christian. 😕 'Da _ **HELL?!??** _ 😕 Protestant is a subset of Christian. The church that Obama belongs to, Trinity United Church of Christ (hint hint), is a Christian denomination. What may be confusing you is the fact that Obama was brought up as the child of an interfaith marriage (a couple of them, actually) with a rather multifaith religious perspective. However, he has been a baptized churchgoing Christian for most of his adult life. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/36 "2009-02-23T02:32:54Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Run that by again? I think **kanicbird** (or maybe **lekatt** ) brought along a friend. That’s just my initial feeling; I hope I’m proven wrong. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/37 "2009-02-23T17:00:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “Largely secular democracy with some fundamental religious discrimination” is the best I can come up with. The essential idea of Israel as a “Jewish state” means that it is not religiously neutral across the board, even if it forbids religious discrimination in some areas. For example, immigration laws are different for Jews and non-Jews. Laws on mandatory military service are different for Jews and non-Jews. > > If your definition of “democracy” includes the condition “having a strictly secular government in which the same laws apply equally to all citizens regardless of religious belief”, then no, Israel doesn’t qualify. But that’s a pretty restrictive condition on the definition of “democracy”. Nonsense. Israel is a “Jewish state” in the same sense as Germany is a “German state”. It is ethno-nationalist - just like most states in good ol’ Europe. It is true that some ethnic and religious minorities do not serve in the Israeli army. But this does not serve your point, as some minorities who do _not_ serve are Jewish (the ultra-Orthodox - a very sore point within Israel) and some minorities who _do_ serve are _not_ Jewish (for example, Druze). It is hardly an example of “religious discrimination”! Druze serve in the Israeli army, are not Jewish: [Druze - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze#In_Israel) Ultra-Orthodox do not serve in the Israeli army, are Jewish: > **[Haredi Judaism | Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Orthodox_Jews#Israel)** > > Israel has the largest Haredi population. In 1948, there were about 35,000 to 45,000 Haredi Jews in Israel. By 1980, Haredim made up 4% of the Israeli population. Haredim made up 9.9% of the Israeli population in 2009, with 750,000 out of 7,552,100; by 2014, that figure had risen to 11.1%, with 910,500 Haredim out of a total Israeli population of 8,183,400. According to a December 2017 study conducted by the Israeli Democracy Institute, the number of Haredi Jews in Israel exceeded 1 milli The num... ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/38 "2009-02-23T18:44:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Nonsense. Israel is a “Jewish state” in the same sense as Germany is a “German state”. It is ethno-nationalist - just like most states in good ol’ Europe. Nopester. The Israeli immigration laws discriminate based on religion as well as on ethno-nationality. That is, non-ethnically-Jewish converts to Judaism are also covered by the Law of Return, just as ethnic Jews are. Would-be immigrants who are not ethnically Jewish and have **not** converted to Judaism, on the other hand, are not immediately entitled to Israeli citizenship. That’s a distinction on religious grounds, not ethnic grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/39 "2009-02-23T20:01:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nopester. The Israeli immigration laws discriminate based on religion as well as on ethno-nationality. That is, non-ethnically-Jewish converts to Judaism are also covered by the Law of Return, just as ethnic Jews are. > > Would-be immigrants who are not ethnically Jewish and have **not** converted to Judaism, on the other hand, are not immediately entitled to Israeli citizenship. That’s a distinction on religious grounds, not ethnic grounds. “Ethnicity” means more than you appear to think it means. Judaism is perhaps unique in that it is an ethnicity based on what is, currently, a religion (rather than some other cultural traits such as a common language). But this does not thereby render the fact of “ethnicity” not true. Definition of ethnicity: [Answers about Ethnicity](http://www.answers.com/topic/ethnicity) > [@](#): > > The Greek ethnos is variously translated ‘tribe’ or ‘nation’ and its meaning can be taken as being some way between the two. Ethnicity is the quality of belonging to an ethnic group. But the question of what is an ethnic group, as opposed to any other kind of group, is one which permits no simple answer. Ethnic groups are not races, since ethnicity can be more precisely defined than race or even logically independent: Serbs and Croats are also Slavs, and a **Jew** might be black or white. Nor does membership of an ethnic group relate a person necessarily to a particular territory in the way that nationality does. [Emphasis added] “Ethnicity” is, in essence, an allegiance (through descent, fictive or real, or otherwise) to some “ethnic group”. The purpose of the “Law of Return” was to offer a safe refuge for “Jews” - the ethnic group - and not to promote some religious object. One can certainly be a “Jew” and not believe in the Jewish religion; or one can become a “Jew” by conversion - but the latter is as a matter of fact very, very rare. Judaism is not a prostheletizing religion and it actively _discourages_ conversion. Israel is, in reality, no different from other countries which provide immigration privileges to individuals with ethnic ties to these countries, such as Germany, Ireland, Greece, Japan, Turkey, Spain, Chile, Finland and the United Kingdom, where those with an ancestor who was a citizen (typically a grandparent or closer) can immigrate more easily than others. Edit: I see you have no response to the Israeli army point. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937/40 "2009-02-23T20:16:46Z")
And note that various ethnic groups around the world allow someone to join their particular ethnic group. For instance, a person of English descent could be adopted into the Cherokee tribe. As far as the Cherokees are concerned this person is a Cherokee, regardless of their hair color or skin color or ancestry. You can become a Jew by converting to Judaism. Other ethnic groups can have other methods whereby people outside the ethnic group can or cannot join that ethnic group. I know it seems a little odd because from our modern perspective nationality, ethnicity, language, race, and religion are all separate things that have very little to do with each other. But this is a distinctly modern notion, and the Jewish notion of Jewish ethnicity is premodern. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-democracy-or-theocracy/486937.md?page=3)