# Israel exchanges murderer for the bodies of two dead soldiers - why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072 "2008-07-19T19:13:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/61 "2008-07-21T09:01:02Z")
My God! They HURT his TOE! It’s like Abu Ghraib all over again! (The [fact](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331032843&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) that the Palestinian was checked by a doctor and sent home, the soldier was arrested, and the officer on the scene is under investigation don’t mean much to you, right? I’m not surprised). ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/62 "2008-07-21T09:03:02Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] … But journalists are rarely present when spy planes enter Chinese airspace, when navies roam around disputed waters in the Persian Gulf, when submarines sink in the Baltic sea and when soldiers are attacked in the vicinity of the Lebanese border. [/QUOTE] Or when Israeli men are coming of age. Edit: > [@](#): > > …The IDF on Monday arrested a soldier who was \*\*caught on camera \*\*two weeks ago shooting a rubber bullet at a blindfolded and handcuffed Palestinian in the West Bank. _emphasis added_ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/63 "2008-07-21T09:10:43Z")
Wait a second… are you _implying_ something? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/64 "2008-07-21T12:14:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Why would you want him back in Israel? Now’s the best time of Shalit’s life. Low on liberty and a social life, but that is more than outweighed by the benefits of separation from Israeli [culture and practices\*](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7516477.stm) . He’s in a relative paradise of civilisation and the charitable hope is that there he remains until the end of his days. [/QUOTE] I’m not trying to imply that abuses don’t occur on the Israeli side of things, but your anti-Zion/Israel/Jew bias is duly noted. Both sides of this issue have legitimate gripes with each other that they somehow cannot seem to resolve without resorting to violence. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/65 "2008-07-21T12:19:39Z")
Understatement of the year, my friend. You have got to be kidding me **Sevastopol.** A guy getting shot in the _toe_, with a _rubber bullet_ - and you’re using that as an example of Israeli “atrocities” which you believe to be equivalent to the terrorist mass-murder that Hezbollah has been perpetrating? And you really think the Israeli captive is “better off” - God knows what they’re doing to him there, if he’s even still alive. Your post would be funny if I didn’t know that you really mean it. “The best time of his life.” Jesus. Seriously, stop and think about this for a second. The guy has a family who loves him, who lay awake every night praying to God that he’s still alive and hoping for his return - and you, safely behind your computer, are making light of it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/66 "2008-07-21T20:05:34Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] Indeed. And writing “Hezbollah” in italics doesn’t change a thing. [/quote] You’re correct, they’re still a genocidal, Jew-hating terrorist organization whose word you’re using to cast doubt upon photographic evidence, among other things. Your position would still be absurd without the italics pointing out that the source you were granting credibility to was Hezbollah. Or to put it in a nutshell, you have admitted that you inherently distrust any military source. But once Hezbollah makes a claim, you’re willing to grant that enough credibility to consider the situation not only unresolved, but _unresolvable_ barring Hezbollah’s explicit admission. It’s an absurdity. [QUOTE=clairobscur] Sorry, I can’t see your link, my browser crashes each time I try to open it. [/quote] You could try cutting and pasting it into a browser that isn’t broken. Or you could google it yourself and find the photographic evidence. The correct procedure for tracking down facts is not to simply quit and declare that if terrorists disagree, we can’t know. But to actually look up the facts and see if Hezbollah’s denial is worth a damn thing. Why, exactly, have you not only skipped that crucial step, but seen fit to argue for the validity of Hezbollah’s claims without doing any research first? [QUOTE=clairobscur] That would be the most convincing argument. [/quote] And yet, you remain unconvinced and are still arguing. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/67 "2008-07-21T21:49:27Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Understatement of the year, my friend. You have got to be kidding me **Sevastopol.** A guy getting shot in the _toe_, with a _rubber bullet_ [/QUOTE] FYI ‘rubber bullet’ is one of the world’s most popular euphemisms. Aren’t you all about guns and stuff? You should know this. > [@](#): > > …the video clip showed a soldier firing a rubber-coated steel bullet > [@](#): > > - and you’re using that as an example of Israeli “atrocities” which you believe to be equivalent to the terrorist mass-murder that Hezbollah has been perpetrating? What? Where? > [@](#): > > And you really think the Israeli captive is “better off” - God knows what they’re doing to him there, if he’s even still alive. Sure he’s better off. He’s fine, it’s not like he’s been captured by the Tutsis or Hutus, United States, or Taliban. These captors are civilised people. And as for him, he’s certainly better off than brutalising himself to a living death through service in the West Bank IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/68 "2008-07-21T21:52:30Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Wait a second… are you _implying_ something? [/QUOTE] Nifty huh. Argument by inference. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/69 "2008-07-21T22:11:42Z")
You know what Sevastopol? Your little show isn’t cute. One day you’ll slip up and accidentally say what you really think in clear language, and get yourself banned. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/70 "2008-07-21T22:52:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Why would you want him back in Israel? Now’s the best time of Shalit’s life. Low on liberty and a social life, but that is more than outweighed by the benefits of separation from Israeli [culture and practices\*](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7516477.stm) . He’s in a relative paradise of civilisation and the charitable hope is that there he remains until the end of his days. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Sevastopol] > [@](#): > > And you really think the Israeli captive is “better off” - God knows what they’re doing to him there, if he’s even still alive. Sure he’s better off. He’s fine, it’s not like he’s been captured by the Tutsis or Hutus, United States, or Taliban. These captors are civilised people. And as for him, he’s certainly better off than brutalising himself to a living death through service in the West Bank IDF. [/quote] **Moderator’s Warning:** **Sevastopol** , I am having trouble believing you actually hold the opinions you are professing on this point. I think you are trolling. Knock it off. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/71 "2008-07-21T23:32:33Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] You’re correct, they’re still a genocidal, Jew-hating terrorist organization whose word you’re using to cast doubt upon photographic evidence, among other things. Your position would still be absurd without the italics pointing out that the source you were granting credibility to was Hezbollah. Or to put it in a nutshell, you have admitted that you inherently distrust any military source. But once Hezbollah makes a claim, you’re willing to grant that enough credibility to consider the situation not only unresolved, but _unresolvable_ barring Hezbollah’s explicit admission. It’s an absurdity. [/quote] Nope. I don’t need to grant credibility to the Hezbollah to deny it to israel. Both sides have a vested interest in presenting the story the way they do. Neither is above lying. So, I’ve no reason to believe one side rather than the other. Basically, I thought along these lines : 1. Is it credible that Israel could have sent a patrol on the other side of the border? Answer : yes 2)If it has been the case, would they publicly admit to it? Answer : no So, I can’t grant any credibility to Israel’s stance, since I know they would say the same thing whether or not the soldiers had been attacked in Lebanese territory. > [@](#): > > You could try cutting and pasting it into a browser that isn’t broken. > Or you could google it yourself and find the photographic evidence. > > The correct procedure for tracking down facts is not to simply quit and declare that if terrorists disagree, we can’t know. But to actually look up the facts and see if Hezbollah’s denial is worth a damn thing. Why, exactly, have you not only skipped that crucial step, but seen fit to argue for the validity of Hezbollah’s claims without doing any research first? Basically a knee-jerk reaction to posts I read in this thread that were along the line of : a western government says so, and it’s even printed in the newspapers, so it must be true, when I know perfectly well than in such cases most newspapers ask some official or “inside source” and print whatever the official said, and don’t have any way to investigate by themselves the allegations. I must admit that in this particular case, I should have looked up to see whether there were credible evidences either way. I didn’t do so essentially because I don’t care much about where this abduction took place. Once again, it was a knee-jerk reaction to posts that seemed to imply that Israel’s statements could be considered as reliable in a situation where Israel would never says otherwise in any case. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/72 "2008-07-22T03:14:31Z")
Well, fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/73 "2008-07-23T04:35:53Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] You have GOT to be kidding me. The safety of Israeli society is assured by letting the murderer go back to his _murdering_ (not “would be murdering” - ARE murdering) group, so he can be hailed as a hero, have parades in his honor, thereby increasing the morale of the terrorist group immensely, not to mention, being able to advise them on how best to sneak into Israel and kill innocent people? Yeah, that makes Israel real safe, buster. I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you. [/QUOTE] You’d be surprized to learn that the American military, probably the only military in the world man for man more powerful than the Israeli military dearly holds a policy called “leave no man behind” . The downside for them is far greater than the possibility of repercussions for Israel as you suggest. Lives are even sacrificed to wrest their dead comrades from the hands of the enemy. Sure, ivory tower professors think its silly, but the policy is so cherished and respected within the military it isn’t even questioned. Check out this [site](http://www.yaleherald.com/article.php?Article=532) > [@](#): > > It never crossed any-body’s mind [to debate the policy]. You’re an eternal optimist. Even if there’s one guy you can take back, then it’s worth it to take back one," Golson said. “It’s a code of ethics, a way of life. It’s part of the culture of being in the military,\*\* that you are a cohesive unit. And you don’t leave anyone behind.\*\*”…“It’s not so much valuing dead things, but valuing life,” he said. “This person sacrificed his life for other people. If he is willing to sacrifice himself for others, why should we not also be willing to sacrifice to honor him?”…“It boils down to having that cohesive group that’s willing to sacrifice for each other and for the good of the cause.” ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/74 "2008-07-23T04:52:39Z")
I’m all for getting the bodies back. But not by trading someone who killed a 4 year old girl, for God’s sake. If this were America and they wanted the bodies back, they would _attack_ Hezbollah and launch an offensive into their territory and kill a shitload of them and send in special ops guys to get the bodies. Not trade a murdering piece of shit. Israel needs to send a message to the terrorists that **Jewish blood is not cheap.** What they are doing here sends no such message. Like I said, it’s a gesture of weakness and passivity. That is not the language that terrorists speak. The only language they speak is force. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/75 "2008-07-23T05:03:09Z")
By the way, there was a question earlier as to what various folks might’ve thought about that monster’s guilt or innocence. A ghoulish piece of evidence that might be presented to settle the matter, [a recently declassified pathologist’s report](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/The+Kuntar+File+Exposed+-+Yediot+Aharonot+14-Jul-2008.htm). It shows Einat Haran’s brain tissue on the butt of Kuntar’s rifle. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/76 "2008-07-23T05:06:48Z")
The best way for Israel to honor these slain soldiers is to send two missiles - with “Goldwasser” and “Regev” painted on them - towards the nearest Hezbollah base. Not to return a sick scumbag who is now getting a hero’s welcome (what kind of “people” welcome a child-murderer as a hero anyway?) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/77 "2008-07-23T05:09:07Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I’m all for getting the bodies back. But not by trading someone who killed a 4 year old girl, for God’s sake. If this were America and they wanted the bodies back, they would _attack_ Hezbollah and launch an offensive into their territory and kill a shitload of them and send in special ops guys to get the bodies. Not trade a murdering piece of shit.. [/QUOTE] Well, didn’t Israel try that and failed? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/78 "2008-07-23T05:10:15Z")
If at first you don’t succeed… The terrorists are certainly living by that motto. Israel has to also if it’s going to fight them off. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/79 "2008-07-23T05:13:24Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] If at first you don’t succeed… The terrorists are certainly living by that motto.. [/QUOTE] Sound’s like Bush’s motto as well. Keep trying. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072/80 "2008-07-23T05:21:54Z")
Bush is doing it all wrong. Israel has the best air force in the world. They should be using it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-exchanges-murderer-for-the-bodies-of-two-dead-soldiers-why/457072.md?page=5)