# Israel Folau, freedom of speech, and employer rights. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954 "2019-06-24T08:35:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/21 "2019-06-24T15:54:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I think most of what religion has to say is nonsensical and quite a bit anachronistic. However, it’s a fact that economic extortion and other punishments are going to be applied in a biased way. If all members of all religions were to be treated with equivalent harshness I’d still disagree with the methodology but at least it wouldn’t be pure politically correct virtue signaling. > > Why not boycott the entire Middle East if it’s appropriate to financially cripple ancient, barbaric ideology? I don’t see how this is an answer to the question I asked. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/22 "2019-06-24T15:59:47Z")
Rugby Australia won’t let me play for them, either. Am I being censored? He has a right to say what he thinks. He does not have a right to play rugby. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/23 "2019-06-24T16:08:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Rugby Australia won’t let me play for them, either. Am I being censored? > > He has a right to say what he thinks. He does not have a right to play rugby. You should start a gofundme. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/24 "2019-06-24T16:56:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Australia doesn’t have “free speech” as a specifically protected Constitutional right. That a country’s laws don’t have the same structure as the US does doesn’t mean that what you don’t find where you’d find it in the US isn’t as protected as it would be if you’d found it there: it means you need to get a different map. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/25 "2019-06-24T17:34:35Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > But the fact is, “economic extortion” is a meaningless phrase that may sound ominous, but so does “leprechaun scorn” and no one is very worried when rainbows come out. I dunno, sounds like the guy mentioned in the OP gets all wound up when the rainbows come out 😉 I’m fairly sure I got let go from one casual job at a restaurant for being vegetarian. The head chef had some big grudge against the concept (he’d go into a 10 minute rant in the kitchen if anyone asked if there were any vegan options). I’d been there for months until he found out which is why I suspect that was the reason- right up to the shift someone mentioned me being vegetarian in front of him they’d been telling me they were really happy with me and they’d like me to stay on after the summer. They cancelled my next shift, never me offered any more and were really awkward when I went round to pick up my final pay. I reckon that letting me go for that was unfair (though I didn’t want to work with such a dick, so I didn’t complain), but if I had been calling customers who ordered the steak ‘murderers’ then it would have been utterly fair enough to boot me out, even if I’d only been doing that on twitter not at work. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/26 "2019-06-24T18:33:34Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > I dunno, sounds like the guy mentioned in the OP gets all wound up when the rainbows come out 😉 Now, _that’s_ a thing of beauty. j ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/27 "2019-06-24T19:47:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Economic extortion to enforce uniformity of thought and to suppress religious freedom and freedom of expression is de facto censorship. And we say it again - it’s NOT government censorship. That’s what’s forbidden. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/28 "2019-06-24T19:57:42Z")
I have generally negative feelings about employers sticking their noses into what employees do on their own time. If I want to march in a pride parade or stick a Nyarlathotep-for-President sticker on my car’s bumper, they shouldn’t pay attention to it. But if they’re paying me to be a public figure and a face of their organization, that, I think, makes their monitoring of my personal time less disagreeable. I suspect I could be persuaded to think differently about this one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/29 "2019-06-24T21:00:32Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That a country’s laws don’t have the same structure as the US does doesn’t mean that what you don’t find where you’d find it in the US isn’t as protected as it would be if you’d found it there: > > it means you need to get a different map. What? No. Some political speech has implied protections in Australia, “frree speech” full stop doesn’t exist in the American sense. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/30 "2019-06-24T22:14:12Z")
If Israel Folau really feels that strongly that gay people need to be turned away from being gay - and clearly Rugby Australia very vehemently feels that that is NOT the case, and that this is an inappropriate thing to say - then surely from his point of view they’re an immoral organisation, and he shouldn’t be taking their money? I wouldn’t want to work for an organisation whose goals I thought were really wrong. The vegetarian comparison is pretty apt here, I think. If you’re SO strongly convinced that eating meat is terrible, to the point where you feel compelled to go on YouTube and exhort everyone about meat being murder, then you should probably just stop working for the burger joint before you get sacked. Admittedly, finding an organisation for whom “not pissing off their LGBT customers” isn’t a big priority, is kind of hard at the moment, and is probably a bigger crimp on his career than a veggie food worker restricting their employment options to veggie restaurants. But he’s a talented guys, I’m sure he can figure something out. And he has enough money to retire on too. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/31 "2019-06-25T00:26:50Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > And we say it again - it’s NOT government censorship. That’s what’s forbidden. From 2002: > [@](#): > > In the first Australian court decision on race hate and the Internet, the Federal Court found that a website that denied the Holocaust and vilified Jewish people was unlawful under Australia’s Racial Discrimination Act 1975. [http://www.galexia.com/public/research/articles/research\_articles-art22.html](http://www.galexia.com/public/research/articles/research_articles-art22.html) Government censorship is allowed. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/32 "2019-06-25T07:35:56Z")
So after gofundme shut down his fundraising page, the [Australian Christian Lobby](https://www.acl.org.au/#splash-signup) has reinstated the money-grubbing on their own personal page. Thus far it’s raised more than the dollars raised on gfm claiming Folau is being subject to religious persecution. The ACL mob are a paranoid bunch of idiots who claim that Christians are being persecuted, and are ‘prey’ in a world with changing moral and legal precepts. Really, they’re not. Folau is just their Martyr of the Day. They’re gonna be real pissed though when he loses his case in the High Court. But, hey, they made their donations with their Frequent Flyer card, and probably can claim it as a tax deduction too. EOFY ends on Sunday this week, perfect timing eh? ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/33 "2019-06-25T08:28:54Z")
^^^ What I stopped by to say. [This was the link I had.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-48753566) j ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/34 "2019-06-25T08:40:50Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > If Israel Folau really feels that strongly that gay people need to be turned away from being gay - and clearly Rugby Australia very vehemently feels that that is NOT the case, and that this is an inappropriate thing to say - then surely from his point of view they’re an immoral organisation, and he shouldn’t be taking their money? [Does modelling for the front page of a flagrantly gay mag count?](https://www.bandt.com.au/media/big-boys-balls-time-israel-folau-starred-cover-gay-mag) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/35 "2019-06-25T09:50:39Z")
The argument that he’s being persecuted for his “religious beliefs” rather than “hate speech” ultimately boils down to “Hey, **I’m** not a bigot - it’s _ **God** _ who’s the bigot! If it were up to me, I’d be totally fine with gay people!”. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/36 "2019-06-25T11:15:45Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Mind you. he isn’t calling for anything like that. He only believes that gays, along with a multitude of other “sinners” will go to some mythical hell. Think his claims through. He thinks that the being who is inherently right and good in all his actions will send gay people to be tortured for all of eternity when they die. And he’s fine with that. It’s a pretty awful thing to say, as Jeff Dee [so wonderfully put it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdINL3CC7n4) some years back. It’s a scornful, disgusting thing to say, and I can say that, were I the target of such rhetoric, I would not want to support this man’s team. If I were a teammate, I would not feel comfortable sharing the field with someone who thought that about me. If I were a donor or advertiser, I would feel really uncomfortable supporting this man financially. That’s exactly the kind of logic the club in question is using. The man literally signed it into his contract! This is not a free speech issue, any more than it’s a free speech issue if I’m fired after I go into my boss’s office and say, “You’re a dumb cunt, just like your wife who I fucked last night”. Except in this case, not commenting on your boss’s wife is _written into your contract_. It’s _absurd_ to claim that this is a free speech issue. And it’s equally absurd to take those claims as anything other than bad-faith gibberish from people who want to be able to say literally anything they want without facing any consequences for their actions. It’s not a serious argument and it’s neither worth taking seriously nor worth responding to unless you are somehow _legally obliged to_. I sincerely doubt it’s even going to make it to a lawsuit. These people aren’t _stupid_, they’re just good at parting stupid people from their money, and right-wing grift is so easy that [literally any idiot can do it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1rEtk0b4tw). ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/37 "2019-06-25T11:25:34Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > [Does modelling for the front page of a flagrantly gay mag count?](https://www.bandt.com.au/media/big-boys-balls-time-israel-folau-starred-cover-gay-mag) > > 😉 … okay. that (under the circumstances) was weird. Do you think Mark Iles knows about this? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/38 "2019-06-25T12:46:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > From 2002: > > [Research - Article - Jones v Toben - Racial Discrimination on the Internet (October 2002)](http://www.galexia.com/public/research/articles/research_articles-art22.html) > > Government censorship is allowed. That’s a hate speech exception. We have exceptions too, like being forbidden to yell “fire” in a crowded theatre when there is no fire. But those are the only government type exceptions. Any grief you get from employers or others over your words may be regrettable but not illegal. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/39 "2019-06-25T13:28:01Z")
Agree they had a right to sack him, since he’s a public face of the organisation and it was even in his contract. But is what he said really hate speech? I thought there had to be an element of threatening harm, and being sent to an imaginary hell doesn’t harm anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/40 "2019-06-25T13:38:00Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Agree they had a right to sack him, since he’s a public face of the organisation and it was even in his contract. But is what he said really hate speech? I thought there had to be an element of threatening harm, and being sent to an imaginary hell doesn’t harm anyone. Ah - you may think it’s imaginary, but evidently he doesn’t. So he was threatening real harm. If you see what I mean. j [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954.md?page=3)