# Israel Folau, freedom of speech, and employer rights. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954 "2019-06-24T08:35:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/41 "2019-06-25T15:25:34Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > Ah - you may think it’s imaginary, but evidently he doesn’t. So he was threatening real harm. If you see what I mean. > > j Why? Was he threatening to send them to hell? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/42 "2019-06-25T15:48:51Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Why? Was he threatening to send them to hell? According to his own belief system he’d probably say the opposite, he was trying to warn people so they could be ‘saved’. It’s an unpleasant and possibly hurtful thing to say, but not IMO a threat. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/43 "2019-06-25T16:00:44Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > That’s a hate speech exception. We have exceptions too, like being forbidden to yell “fire” in a crowded theatre when there is no fire. But those are the only government type exceptions. Any grief you get from employers or others over your words may be regrettable but not illegal. It’s not the same thing at all. A "hate speech exemption " is censorship, yelling fire in a crowded theater not being allowed is because of the direct physical threat it causes. And it’s not an exemption, because like I said, “free speech” isn’t spelled out as a rule in Australia, it is carved out from other freedoms and guarantees. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/44 "2019-06-25T16:05:00Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Agree they had a right to sack him, since he’s a public face of the organisation and it was even in his contract. But is what he said really hate speech? I thought there had to be an element of threatening harm, and being sent to an imaginary hell doesn’t harm anyone. No threat is required. From the wiki on Hate Speech in Australia: > [@](#): > > The Racial Discrimination Act 1975 forbids hate speech on several grounds. > […] > "unlawful for a person to do an act, otherwise than in private, if the act is reasonably likely, in all the circumstances, to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a group of people; and the act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person, " Some jurisdictions include sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/45 "2019-06-25T16:50:44Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Why? Was he threatening to send them to hell? As servant and (self appointed) spokesperson of someone who (as I understand it) has threatened to send them to hell, it appears to me that he was acting with a [common purpose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_purpose) by delivering the threat. Do we have an Australian lawyer in the house? j ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/46 "2019-06-25T17:01:10Z")
I don’t think we need a lawyer to see that as pretty ridiculous and regardless, I quoted text from the Australian law the post above yours which clearly doesn’t require a threat. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/47 "2019-06-25T17:08:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No threat is required. From the wiki on Hate Speech in Australia… So insulting another person in the street is a crime in Australia? How about internet forums? Are Australians posting in the Pit risking arrest? Seems like a big infringement on free speech. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/48 "2019-06-25T17:13:23Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > So insulting another person in the street is a crime in Australia? How about internet forums? Are Australians posting in the Pit risking arrest? Seems like a big infringement on free speech. I am not an Australian lawyer so I don’t know how far this law has been tested but clearly just insulting someone is not prohibited, unless it’s a racist insult. Not sure how many Australians we have making racist insults in the Pit. And I already quoted a 2002 decision that held a Holocaust denial website in violation of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/49 "2019-06-25T18:09:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I don’t think we need a lawyer to see that as pretty ridiculous and regardless, I quoted text from the Australian law the post above yours which clearly doesn’t require a threat. A different wiki (so take both with a grain of salt) states that an exemption is made “fair comment that is an expression of genuine belief.” I don’t know what “fair comment” means in this context but it almost certainly seems like a genuine belief. [Link.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_18C_of_the_Racial_Discrimination_Act_1975) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/50 "2019-06-25T19:28:52Z")
Canada gives latitude for sincere religious expression too. I doubt this guy could reasonably be charged. I’m really just pushing back on the idea that all Western countries are basically the same on this. The US is an outlier in its free speech protection. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/51 "2019-06-25T19:46:58Z")
I wish more countries were like the US, then. I think the right to free speech is more important than the right not to be insulted or offended, whether it involves a few selected categories or not. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/52 "2019-06-25T20:24:01Z")
Be that as it may, it seems the athlete signed away his ability to make these kinds of comments while keeping his job with the team. From reading just one article on this case, it’s clear that the clause in the contract was added to address exactly the sort of comments he was fired for. He’d have to be an idiot to not understand what he was signing. And once he freely signed away his ability to criticize homosexuality, well – he has to sleep in the bed he made. Civil rights have nothing to do with this. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/53 "2019-06-25T21:15:13Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I wish more countries were like the US, then. I think the right to free speech is more important than the right not to be insulted or offended, whether it involves a few selected categories or not. How much of an effect do you thnk it would have on your life if Holocaust denial was outlawed in America? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/54 "2019-06-25T21:31:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > How much of an effect do you thnk it would have on your life if Holocaust denial was outlawed in America? I’m shocked and mildly disappointed that anyone would find this relevant. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/55 "2019-06-25T22:25:50Z")
Since it’s perfectly relevant, maybe you should recalibrate. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/56 "2019-06-25T22:57:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > How much of an effect do you thnk it would have on your life if Holocaust denial was outlawed in America? I was thinking more of this kind of thing: > **[BBC News - John Lennon Airport sexual image atheist gets Asbo](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/8640048.stm)** > > A "militant atheist" who left explicit images in Liverpool John Lennon Airport's prayer room is given a suspended sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/57 "2019-06-25T23:31:06Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Since it’s perfectly relevant, maybe you should recalibrate. Whether the abridgment of a right would have an effect on my life has no bearing on whether it should be protected. If you feel otherwise, by all means explain yourself. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/58 "2019-06-25T23:44:55Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > [Does modelling for the front page of a flagrantly gay mag count?](https://www.bandt.com.au/media/big-boys-balls-time-israel-folau-starred-cover-gay-mag) > > 😉 Whoops, not modelling per se, but PROMOTING [“A rugby tournament to tackle homophobia”.](http://www.starobserver.com.au/news/sport/bingham-cup/a-rugby-tournament-to-tackle-homophobia/126524) Dated 2014, it seems that Folau was sincere in his anti-homophobe views then, yet has gone full-blown rabid in opposition in the five years since. Fabulous haircut and colour back in 2014 though. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/59 "2019-06-26T01:49:06Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Whether the abridgment of a right would have an effect on my life has no bearing on whether it should be protected. If you feel otherwise, by all means explain yourself. Yeah, yeah rights are super awesome regardless of how they effect anyone’s life. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954/60 "2019-06-26T01:55:05Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yeah, yeah rights are super awesome regardless of how they effect anyone’s life. :rolleyes: It’s possible to believe in the rights protected by the Constitution even if they don’t affect you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-folau-freedom-of-speech-and-employer-rights/835954.md?page=4)