# Israel in conflict for 65 years. How will it end? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342 "2013-02-25T13:27:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/201 "2013-03-05T16:36:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do you think that British Jews are more loyal to the State of Israel than they are to the UK? This [recent UK survey](http://www.jpr.org.uk/downloads/JPR%20Israel%20survey%20report%2015.pdf) is informative. > [@](#): > > Deep ties and strong commitment > • For 82% of respondents, Israel plays a ‘central’ or ‘important but not central’ > role in their Jewish identities. > • 90% believe that Israel is the ‘ancestral homeland’ of the Jewish people. > • 95% have visited Israel at some point in the past. In contrast, previous studies > reported comparable figures of 91% (2002) and 78% (1995). > • 72% categorize themselves as Zionists; 21% do not see themselves as Zionists, > and 7% are unsure. Generally speaking, the more religious respondents say > they are, the more likely they are to describe themselves as Zionist. > • 87% say that Jews in Britain are part of a global Jewish ‘Diaspora’; just 19% > regard Jews outside Israel as living in ‘exile’. > • Only 31% agree that the State of Israel has a responsibility for ‘ensuring the > safety of Jews around the world’. By contrast, 77% of respondents agree that > Jews have ‘a special responsibility to support Israel’.10 > • An overwhelming majority (87%) agrees that Jews are responsible for > ensuring ‘the survival of Israel’— over half (54%) the non-Zionist respondents > also agree. And given the history why the hell should jews of any nationality not feels like this? It doesn’t make them traitors or the ‘enemy within’. Until the UK and Israel are in a state of near conflict questions of primary loyalty do not even make sense. I agree with you - it is utterly preposterous of anyone to maintain that an awareness and valuing of ethnic identity in and of itself has anything to do with ‘loyalty’. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/202 "2013-03-05T16:43:20Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > This [recent UK survey](http://www.jpr.org.uk/downloads/JPR%20Israel%20survey%20report%2015.pdf) is informative. > > And given the history why the hell should jews of any nationality not feels like this? It doesn’t make them traitors or the ‘enemy within’. > > Until the UK and Israel are in a state of near conflict questions of primary loyalty do not even make sense. > > I agree with you - it is utterly preposterous of anyone to maintain that an awareness and valuing of ethnic identity in and of itself has anything to do with ‘loyalty’. Liking Israel does not mean one feels more loyal to Israel than to one’s home country. To give an obvious example, George W. Bush was a huge supporter of Israel but no one seriously thought he was more loyal to Israel than the US. A poll like that conducted in the 1980s would have probably found American Catholics giving even more positive support for the Pope but that hardly meant American Catholics were more loyal to the Pope than to the US. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/203 "2013-03-05T16:45:58Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Ah. I missed that bit of news completely. Thank you! I had to dig as it actually wasn’t big news. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/204 "2013-03-05T16:47:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Liking Israel does not mean one feels more loyal to Israel than to one’s home country. > > To give an obvious example, George W. Bush was a huge supporter of Israel but no one seriously thought he was more loyal to Israel than the US. > > A poll like that conducted in the 1980s would have probably found American Catholics giving even more positive support for the Pope but that hardly meant American Catholics were more loyal to the Pope than to the US. Jesus! I’m agreeing with you. As does that poll. You are sometimes way too quick to pick fights. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/205 "2013-03-05T16:59:29Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Jesus! I’m agreeing with you. As does that poll. You are sometimes way too quick to pick fights. My comment wasn’t meant as criticism. I was simply adding to what you’re saying. I’m sorry it came across wrong. I should have began by saying “good point. Additionally…”. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/206 "2013-03-05T17:21:39Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > it is utterly preposterous of anyone to maintain that an awareness and valuing of ethnic identity in and of itself has anything to do with ‘loyalty’. I agree completely. Peter King and Pamela Geller have not gotten the memo. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/207 "2013-03-05T17:45:18Z")
> [@Kepler1571](#): > > I agree completely. Peter King and Pamela Geller have not gotten the memo. I’m no fan of Peter King and Pamela Gellar is a racist piece of shit, but I’ve never heard either of them make any comments suggesting they were somehow disloyal to the US. What are you referring to? Edit: I just realized you meant they accuse Muslim Americans of disloyalty. Yes, I agree entirely. Apologies for my mistake. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/208 "2013-03-05T17:56:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m astonished no-one has picked up on this particular piece of nonsense yet. Probably because other folks understood it, and thus is wasn’t non-sense to them. I’ll explain it to you, however. > [@Steophan](#): > > France is a Catholic country This is utterly fictional. France has a high percentage of (nominally) Catholic citizens. France has had Freedom of Religion since the late 18th century and church and state have been legally separated since the very beginning of the 20th century. Strike one, Steophan. > [@Steophan](#): > > It makes, literally, no sense to suggest that Catholicism is in any way foreign in France, unlike Jewishness, where they deliberately keep their culture separate. If they didn’t value their Judaism higher that their Frenchness, they’d be Catholic. So protestants “value their Protestantism higher than their Frenchness”? [Atheists and agnostics, who make up roughly 1/3 of French society](http://www.fgi-tbff.org/sites/default/files/elfinder/FGIImages/Research/fromresearchtopolicy/ipsos_mori_briefing_pack.pdf)? Unmitigated bullshit, Steophan. And it smacks of centuries of persecution where Jews were always a perpetual Other… unless of course they converted. And of course Judaism isn’t foreign to France in any meaningful way, considering that Jews have been living there since the Middle Ages. If you’re forced to state that, well, sure, Christianity got to France a few centuries before Judaism, and Judaism has ‘only’ been there for hundreds upon hundreds of years, it’s pretty clear your argument is verging on absurd. Your argument then goes Full Absurd when you claim that Jews “deliberately keep their culture separate”, but you can defend that little nugget if you really insist. > [@Steophan](#): > > As for Israel, it will survive exactly as long as the US is willing and able to ensure it’s safety. Not to point out that you’re utterly ignorant, but, well, you’re utterly ignorant. Israel survived to and through 1967 without any significant US aid. It got atomic weapons without US aid. The idea that it’s going to crumble the day the US doesn’t “ensure its safety” (which, by the way, we don’t do directly, at all)? Well, it’s simply, silly. You can now go back to ignorant ranting about abominations and racist states, should you like. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/209 "2013-03-05T18:48:47Z")
Yeah… I’m not the one ranting ignorantly in this thread. Everyone knows that many Jews and Muslims here puts their religious identity above their national one, but the think is no one particularly cares. Israel is the state based on racism, not the UK or France. Romantic Nationalism just isn’t that big a deal in old countries such as those in western Europe, as hard as that may be for Americans to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/210 "2013-03-05T19:01:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yeah… I’m not the one ranting ignorantly in this thread. Everyone knows that many Jews and Muslims here puts their religious identity above their national one, but the think is no one particularly cares. Israel is the state based on racism, not the UK or France. Romantic Nationalism just isn’t that big a deal in old countries such as those in western Europe, as hard as that may be for Americans to grasp. So then, to be clear, you’re arguing that it’s not anti-Semitic to claim that French Jews are more loyal to Israel than France. Ok, then three obvious followups. \*\*Do you think that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the US? \*\* **Do you think that British Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the UK?** Finally, you claimed that Jews “deliberately kept their culture separate” while Catholics don’t. **Ok, please tell us how Jews in the US, Canada, the UK, or France “keep their culture separate” while Catholics don’t?** If you were making good points and not “ranting ignorantly”(to use your phrase) then it should be very easy for you to do. Please do so. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/211 "2013-03-05T19:12:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m not the one ranting ignorantly in this thread. Fair enough. What adjective would you like to apply to your ranting, and what verb would you like to pair with your ignorance? While you’re working on that, you could address (or if you’re feeling ambitious, attempt to rebut/correct your argument if you can’t) any of the numerous factual and logical errors you made. > [@Steophan](#): > > Everyone knows that many Jews and Muslims here puts their religious identity above their national one And everyone knows that blacks are prone to watermelon-thievery and white-woman-raping. That is, cite? > [@Steophan](#): > > Israel is the state based on racism Aaaaand, back to the ignorant ranting, I see. Simply to clue you in, self-determination is not racism. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/212 "2013-03-05T19:34:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yeah… I’m not the one ranting ignorantly in this thread. Everyone knows that many Jews and Muslims here puts their religious identity above their national one, but the think is no one particularly cares. Israel is the state based on racism, not the UK or France. Romantic Nationalism just isn’t that big a deal in old countries such as those in western Europe, as hard as that may be for Americans to grasp. What’s the difference between “romantic nationalism” in Western Europian nations and in Israel? Why is it okay in the former and “racist” in the latter? By your own account, a Frenchman would consider that a true Frenchman should be Catholic - and this is presumably okay; if others want to become true Frenchmen, they can convert. Why then is it “racist” for an Israeli to consider that a true Israeli should be Jewish, and that those wanting to be true Israelis ought to convert (assuming any Israeli actually took that position)? It is this special pleading that is “hard to grasp”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/213 "2013-03-05T19:43:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What’s the difference between “romantic nationalism” in Western Europian nations and in Israel? Why is it okay in the former and “racist” in the latter? > > By your own account, a Frenchman would consider that a true Frenchman should be Catholic - and this is presumably okay; if others want to become true Frenchmen, they can convert. Because Europeans are “people like us” and Jews are “them!”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/214 "2013-03-05T19:50:44Z")
That’s just silly. Jews aren’t Them!.. they don’t have chitinous exoskeletons with segmented, jointed legs. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/215 "2013-03-05T19:56:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That’s just silly. Jews aren’t Them!.. they don’t have chitinous exoskeletons with segmented, jointed legs. _Speak for yourself_ 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/216 "2013-03-05T20:16:14Z")
But yes, it’s the special pleading and the ignorance-based arguments that are hard to grasp for people who aren’t steeped in them. When Steo can claim with a straight face that Israel would be destroyed without the US’ intervention (evidently only saying so as a leadin for a rantlet about Racist Abominationville), that France is a Catholic nation, that Jews “deliberately keep their culture separate” (right after claiming that French people would already consider Jews to be a perpetual Other and would not let them into their culture without religious conversion…), that many Jews put their religious identity “above” their national identity? Well, it becomes clear that there’s a certain argument that isn’t about analyzing the facts and coming to conclusions, but trying to support a certain narrative about Evil Israel. In that respect, he’s correct. It’s beyond commonplace in Europe and something that North Americans generally don’t grow up with, so it seems odd to us. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/217 "2013-03-05T20:43:26Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > In that respect, he’s correct. It’s beyond commonplace in Europe and something that North Americans generally don’t grow up with, so it seems odd to us. I grew up in Kentucky, (a straight, white, non-Jewish male) and have literally never heard an anti-Semetic remark uttered in my presence. I’ve heard my share of anti-black and anti-Hispanic slurs, and tons of anti-gay ones, but nothing against Jews. So, yes, it certainly does seem odd to me. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/218 "2013-03-05T21:06:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I grew up in Kentucky, (a straight, white, non-Jewish male) and have literally never heard an anti-Semetic remark uttered in my presence. I’ve heard my share of anti-black and anti-Hispanic slurs, and tons of anti-gay ones, but nothing against Jews. > > So, yes, it certainly does seem odd to me. It is curious, and worthy of study, to note how completely anti-Jewish policies have disappeared in North America - and in a relatively short time. In Canada, my grandfather had to contend with actual anti-Jewish published policies (he was a Jewish athlete in the 1920s - he wasn’t allowed to compete in certain races that were for non-Jews only - reason: at that time athletic races were run by private clubs, many of which would not allow Jews to participate); my uncle, his child, had to contend with university policies that expressly discriminated against Jews (he wanted to be a doctor in the 1950s - Jews had to have higher marks to get admitted to university for medicine). Yet by my parent’s adulthood, all that had more or less disappeared and is now considered unthinkable, and anti-Jewish sentiments have generally followed them into oblivion - at least, among citizens born in NA. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/219 "2013-03-05T21:48:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yet by my parent’s adulthood, all that had more or less disappeared and is now considered unthinkable, and anti-Jewish sentiments have generally followed them into oblivion - at least, among citizens born in NA. Well, you know, here we let Jews become actual members of American and Canadian society without forcing them to convert to Christianity. As would be only right and proper, as Steophan can explain. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/220 "2013-03-05T23:10:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What’s the difference between “romantic nationalism” in Western Europian nations and in Israel? Why is it okay in the former and “racist” in the latter? My post was unclear, I meant that Romantic Nationalism isn’t a particularly strong trend in Western Europe. By Romantic Nationalism, I mean a love for one’s country for it’s own sake, and distinct from political Nationalism. My point is that, even if a group of people are considered more loyal to their church, or their ancestral country, or to another country entirely, most people wouldn’t consider it that big a deal. With the obvious exceptions of the racist nationalist parties, such as the BNP, or Le Pen’s party in France, of which I forget the name. > [@](#): > > By your own account, a Frenchman would consider that a true Frenchman should be Catholic - and this is presumably okay; if others want to become true Frenchmen, they can convert. Why then is it “racist” for an Israeli to consider that a true Israeli should be Jewish, and that those wanting to be true Israelis ought to convert (assuming any Israeli actually took that position)? No, not quite. It’s more that Catholicism is a major part of French national identity, and not part of a Jewish Frenchman’s identity - or an Atheist ones, for that matter. > [@](#): > > It is this special pleading that is “hard to grasp”. I don’t consider that there’s any special pleading on my part. Israel is the special case, and people here seem happy to support it’s racism while falsely claiming it for others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342.md?page=12)