# Israel in conflict for 65 years. How will it end? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342 "2013-02-25T13:27:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/221 "2013-03-05T23:30:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, not quite. It’s more that Catholicism is a major part of French national identity. No it’s not. Where did you hear such nonsense? Have you ever been to France or even met any actual Frenchmen? > [@](#): > > or an Atheist ones Ok, so is your position then that French atheists value their “Atheistness” more than they value their “Frenchness” because they haven’t converted to Catholicism. BTW, please answer the questions I politely asked you. Do you think British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK and that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than the US? Do you think American Jews should be seen as disloyal or “less American” because they don’t convert to Christianity? Finally, please explain how American, Canadian, and British Jews “keep their cultures separate more than Catholics do”? If you were making arguments you can back up you should be able to back them up. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/222 "2013-03-05T23:33:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My post was unclear, I meant that Romantic Nationalism isn’t a particularly strong trend in Western Europe. By Romantic Nationalism, I mean a love for one’s country for it’s own sake, and distinct from political Nationalism. My point is that, even if a group of people are considered more loyal to their church, or their ancestral country, or to another country entirely, most people wouldn’t consider it that big a deal. With the obvious exceptions of the racist nationalist parties, such as the BNP, or Le Pen’s party in France, of which I forget the name. So nationalism isn’t a big deal in Europe, except for those for whom it is a big deal? And you admit there are whole political parties in France based on the concept you are asserting isn’t significant? 😕 I think you misunderstand the nature of evidence, as opposed to assertion. How does “romantic nationalism” differ from “political nationalism”? > [@](#): > > No, not quite. It’s more that Catholicism is a major part of French national identity, and not part of a Jewish Frenchman’s identity - or an Atheist ones, for that matter. > > I don’t consider that there’s any special pleading on my part. Israel is the special case, and people here seem happy to support it’s racism while falsely claiming it for others. Nope, still not grasping how claiming Catholicism is an essential part of a Frenchman’s “national identity” is somehow fundamentally different from the “racism” inherent in claiming that Judaism is an inherent part of an Israeli’s “national identity”. Seems to me that either both would be “racist”, or neither. Hence the allegation that you are engaged in special pleading … you haven’t provided any assertion even as to why France is a different case from Israel. [http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/223 "2013-03-05T23:44:54Z")
Because France isn’t bombing the shit out of people who want to live on their own land, basically. Thinking Jews are more loyal to Israel than France isn’t anti-Semitic, whether it’s true or not. Thinking Catholics are more loyal to the Pope than the Crown isn’t anti-Catholic, whether it’s true or not. Thinking that either of those things are negative traits _is_ anti-whatever. Hence the point about Romantic Nationalism. Americans are very prone to this, hence the ceremonies around the flag, and the pledge of allegiance. You guys _care_ whether someone thinks they’re American first, and considers that sort of identity a form of patriotism. As an Englishman, I don’t really give a shit how someone who lives in my country identifies. Which is fortunate, given how many people who were born here identify as Pakistani, to pick one example - and the reason I pick it is because the town I grew up in had many people who identified as such. It doesn’t matter, but it does mean they’re not as English as me, and they’d say the same thing. Of course, there’s also plenty of people from that background who _do_ consider themselves English. And none of it really matters, except when people start bringing up innocuous observations as evidence of non-existent racism. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/224 "2013-03-05T23:59:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It doesn’t matter, but it does mean they’re not as English as me, and they’d say the same thing. Of course, there’s also plenty of people from that background who _do_ consider themselves English. It’s interesting that you’re using the term “English” instead of British? Obviously if they don’t identify as “English” they’re not. However they are as British as you are and if you claim they’re not then you’re being bigoted. Beyond that, despite being repeatedly asked, to provide evidence for your claims that “Catholicism is a major part of French identity” and that Jews “keep their cultures separate” more than Catholics do. At this point it’s obvious to all reasonable people based on your refusal to answer simple questions that you shot your mouth off about a subject you don’t know very much about as well as expressing bigoted beliefs you can’t back up and you are refusing to admit you’re wrong. Of course you could always remedy this by providing evidence for your assertions about France and Jews but I don’t think we should hold our breaths waiting for your answer. Edit: To make it clear I’m not accusing you of being a bigot since I don’t know if you are or aren’t. I am merely pointing out you have made bigoted comments. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/225 "2013-03-06T00:37:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s interesting that you’re using the term “English” instead of British? > > Obviously if they don’t identify as “English” they’re not. > > However they are as British as you are and if you claim they’re not then you’re being bigoted. You’d have to ask them that. I’m talking about people I know, who were born and live in England, who don’t consider themselves English. Many of them do identify as British, though. > [@](#): > > Beyond that, despite being repeatedly asked, to provide evidence for your claims that “Catholicism is a major part of French identity” and that Jews “keep their cultures separate” more than Catholics do. Over 80% of French people identify as Catholic. As with countries such as Italy and Ireland, it’s a basic part of national identity - although I’ll grant it’s not as large a part. Same with the UK and the churches of England and Scotland, and the US with a more generic Protestantism. And Israel with Judaism. > [@](#): > > At this point it’s obvious to all reasonable people based on your refusal to answer simple questions that you shot your mouth off about a subject you don’t know very much about as well as expressing bigoted beliefs you can’t back up and you are refusing to admit you’re wrong. I’ve already stated most of this in other posts. That you appear to disagree with me that religion is ever a fundamental part of national identity isn’t really my problem. I recognise it, even as an atheist, and it’s obvious that it somewhat cuts me off from parts of my country’s history and culture. > [@](#): > > f course you could always remedy this by providing evidence for your assertions about France and Jews but I don’t think we should hold our breaths waiting for your answer. I don’t need to cite claims that Judaism is a less fundamental part of French identity than Catholicism, or that Jews will feel more loyalty to Israel than non Jews. They are obvious, well known facts that anyone with even the slightest acquaintance with those cultures will know. That you pretend otherwise shows that you either don’t know what you are talking about, or that you have an agenda behind your words. > [@](#): > > Edit: To make it clear I’m not accusing you of being a bigot since I don’t know if you are or aren’t. I am merely pointing out you have made bigoted comments. Well, if you consider any generalisation about a religious or national group a bigoted comment then yes, in common with the rest of the posters in this thread, I have. If, like most people, you consider a bigoted comment one which claims that such a group is wrong or inferior to others then no, I haven’t. I can only assume that you think I think that someone having loyalty to somewhere other than their country of residence, or identifying with another country, are failings of some sort. I’ve repeatedly made it clear I do not think so, and that I do not believe that thinking that way is particularly common in western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/226 "2013-03-06T01:18:15Z")
Readers will note that once again Steophan has not produced any evidence to support his claim that Catholicism is a major part of French national identity nor has he provided any evidence to show that Jews somehow “keep their culture separate more than do Catholics” or even provide evidence for his claim that French Jews are more loyal to Israel than France. Instead, he rather hysterically declares that they are “obvious, well known facts that anyone with even the slightest acquaintance with those cultures will know.” Of course, in doing so he shows he’s extremely ignorant of both French and Jewish culture. It’s painfully obvious at this point that no he can’t back up any of his claims which if they were “obvious well know facts” he’d be able to back them up. Beyond that it is quite amusing that after talking about how British citizens of Pakistani descent were “not as English” as he is, he is claiming that he’s less British than Christians because he’s an atheist and is strongly implying that American Catholics are “less American” than Protestants. I’d say he clearly know nothing about America, France or the Jewish world community but since he apparently thinks that Catholics are barred from being the PM in the UK it’s not clear how knowledgable he is of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/227 "2013-03-06T03:20:57Z")
_::::yawn::::_ Yet another thread about Israel were nothing comes clear. Lather, rinse, repeat. [**Hasbara**](http://www.jewishphoenix.org/page.aspx?id=247464), not reason, rules the day. Neat package I must say, canned answers to everything… Live long and prosper…as long as you are an Israeli citizen, god said so. So that’s it. Mere mortals need not make claims against him. Niters. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/228 "2013-03-06T03:59:55Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > _::::yawn::::_ > > Yet another thread about Israel were nothing comes clear. But if we keep at it, I know we can solve that Middle East thing, I just know it. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/229 "2013-03-06T05:00:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As for Israel, it will survive exactly as long as the US is willing and able to ensure it’s safety. When that ends, the wolves will descend, and the response from the rest of the world will vary between “meh” and outright pleasure that this outright abomination of a racist failed state has been destroyed. Ah, this old chestnut of ignorance. I guess you are unaware of the fact that US support for Israel was minimal until after the 1967 war. Any guesses on where Israel bought the vast majority of its weapons from up ‘til then? The UK and France. They even conspired with Israel to start the [Suez War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis) in 1956, and it was US pressure that was instrumental in forcing France and Britain to quit the Suez. This rather complicates the view of Israel being an evil racist state only surviving due to being propped up by the US while Europe in general and France and the UK in particular having a much more enlightened view on the situation. Never mind that the US never conspired with Israel to start a war, best to ignore the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/230 "2013-03-06T05:52:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Over 80% of French people identify as Catholic. [You should read the cite I already provided to you](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16068135&postcount=208) Let me point out a few tidbits: Importance of faith/ religion in own life – by religious group within country [answers are for ‘yes, faith in important’] Christians overall: 66% French Christians: 36% Does religion provide the common values and ethical foundations that diverse societies need to thrive in the 21st century? [percent answers are for the affirmative] France, third lowest out of all the countries involved in the survey: 24% Not that your ignorance about France is really germane. So why don’t you finally answer as to how Jews who’ve had ancestors in France for centuries are more ‘foreign’ simply because of their religion. You can also address how Jews’ someone retain their culture more than, say, Catholics. > [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t need to cite claims that Judaism is a less fundamental part of French identity than Catholicism, or that Jews will feel more loyalty to Israel than non Jews. They are obvious, well known facts that anyone with even the slightest acquaintance with those cultures will know. That you pretend otherwise shows that you either don’t know what you are talking about, or that you have an agenda behind your words. Ah, yes, he’s got an agenda behind his words. That’s very clever deduction. For serious. And, also, good on you for your using post as your cite. Not many people realize the awesomeness inherent in making a contentious statement in the teeth of facts and logic, and then refusing to provide any shreds of proof at all. And all the while, insulting those who question your version as you refuse to substantiate your claims. Good show. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/231 "2013-03-06T10:37:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > people who want to live on their own land, basically. Can you explain to me how I could know what land a group of people can consider to be “their own land”? For example, is there any land in the Middle East which Jews as a group can consider to be “their own land”? If so, where is it and how did it come to be “their own land” for Jews? And do Jews (as a group) have the right to exclude anyone who is not Jewish from “their own land”? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/232 "2013-03-06T11:12:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > For example, is there any land in the Middle East which Jews as a group can consider to be “their own land”? If so, where is it and how did it come to be “their own land” for Jews? No, there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/233 "2013-03-06T12:23:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, there isn’t. Thank you for answering part of my question. But you did not explain how I could know what land a group of people can consider to be “their own land.” Let me ask you this: Is there any land in the Middle East which the Palestinian Arabs can consider to be “their own land”? For example, after the Jews were ethnically cleansed from Hebron in the 1930s, could the Palestinian Arabs consider Hebron to be “their own land”? What about Gaza City which was ethnically cleansed of Jews in the 1940s? Is there any land in the Middle East which the Palestinian Arabs can consider to be “their own land”? If so, how did it come to be “their own land” and when? Was it after they ethnically cleansed the land of its prior occupants or is there something else which needs to be happen for land to become “their own land”? Also, can a group of people exclude non-members of the group from “their own land”? ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/234 "2013-03-06T13:46:36Z")
[Not the best sidebar story](http://deadspin.com/5988668/racist-israeli-soccer-fans-walk-out-after-muslim-player-scores-for-their-team) for Israeli-Arab relations. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/235 "2013-03-06T14:44:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, there isn’t. So, you ignore literally all the factual and logical refutations that have been provided, but somehow manage to claim, simultaneously, that the land in dispute is all “[the Palestinians’] own land”, while denying that _any_ of it is [the Jews’] own land. Evidently even when Jews buy land, when the JNF owns land specifically to hold in trust for a Jewish state, when Jews have lived in towns, villages and cities for centuries and are ethnically cleansed… none of that is “the Jews’ own land”. And, of course, as you could tell us, Jews are perpetual Others in Christian nations (or non-Christian nations, like France) if they don’t adopt the dominant religion of the nation. And if they don’t, then obviously they value their religion more than their home’s culture, and even if they have roots going back hundreds of years, they’re still essentially foreign. Steo? Have you considered not posting when you have these sorts of thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/236 "2013-03-06T14:49:15Z")
> [@Kepler1571](#): > > [Not the best sidebar story](http://deadspin.com/5988668/racist-israeli-soccer-fans-walk-out-after-muslim-player-scores-for-their-team) for Israeli-Arab relations. Soccer fans … being ignorant bigots?! Such a thing has never happened before! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/237 "2013-03-06T14:51:47Z")
> [@Kepler1571](#): > > [Not the best sidebar story](http://deadspin.com/5988668/racist-israeli-soccer-fans-walk-out-after-muslim-player-scores-for-their-team) for Israeli-Arab relations. They are Chechens. And, they are not booing b/c they are Chechen or of Muslim religion - they are booing b/c they are not Israelis or Jews. However, we’ve been told that romantic nationalism is a-okay so suck it up Chechen boys :o ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/238 "2013-03-06T14:55:26Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > And, they are not booing b/c they are Chechen or of Muslim religion - they are booing b/c they are not Israelis or Jews. Ooooh, a rousing game of Let’s Pretend! My turn, my turn! And they were not booing because the players are Chechen or Muslims, they were booing because the players are really sentient giant squid hiding in human-suits and plotting total global domination. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/239 "2013-03-06T14:56:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Soccer fans … being ignorant bigots?! Such a thing has never happened before! :eek: On the other hand, if it was a Jewish or Israeli soccer player booed in France - well, that would be entirely different issue. Plus, it would be on CNN – breaking news or something. Luckily, it’s Israelis being bigoted and who wants to debate that? DUH!!! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/240 "2013-03-06T15:01:30Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > On the other hand, if it was a Jewish or Israeli soccer player booed in France - well, that would be entirely different issue. Plus, it would be on CNN – breaking news or something. Yeah, because you know The Jews and how The Media works, eh, eh? Speaking of which, would you like to elaborate on your views about The Mossad’s connection to 9/11? > [@newcomer](#): > > Luckily, it’s Israelis being bigoted and who wants to debate that? Newcomer ol’ buddy? Nobody wants to debated that, because bigotry is bad and nobody’s going to support it. But you’re not interested in a debate. You’re interested in a rant, and in bullshit you dreamed up about how players were booed for not being Jews or Israelis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342.md?page=13)