# Israel in conflict for 65 years. How will it end? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342 "2013-02-25T13:27:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/121 "2013-02-27T14:22:20Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > In any event, the creation of an autonomous Palestinian state would not end the conflict. It would exacerbate the conflict. History very strongly suggests democracies do not go to war against each other - the event never having happened. Thus it is far more probable the fact of a Palestinian State would just require Israel to compromise. So a Palestinian State is not to be permitted. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/122 "2013-02-27T14:53:19Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > History very strongly suggests democracies do not go to war against each other - the event never having happened. Lol, are you serious? How did Hamas get into power in Gaza? > [@](#): > > Thus it is far more probable the fact of a Palestinian State would just require Israel to compromise. How exactly would a Palestinian State require Israel to compromise? Please give specifics. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/123 "2013-02-27T14:54:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, are you serious? How did Hamas get into power in Gaza? err … because it insists on a Palestinian State? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/124 "2013-02-27T15:03:54Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > err … because it insists on a Palestinian State? Your faith in a (democratically elected) Hamas-led Gazan state being definitionally unable to wage war on Israel should Gaza become officially a state because it would be a democracy is touching, but it is not really borne out by the evidence. Certainly, I myself would be most unwilling to bet _my_ life on it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/125 "2013-02-27T15:07:28Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > err … because it insists on a Palestinian State? Ummm, it was [elected in a vote.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) > [@](#): > > Since June 2007 Hamas has governed the Gaza Strip, after it won a majority of seats in the Palestinian Parliament in the January 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections[7] and then defeated the Fatah political organization in a series of violent clashes. Did you really not know that? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/126 "2013-02-27T15:15:34Z")
By the way **Brokenbriton** , I think it would make sense if I try to lay out your argument. You seem to be arguing as follows: 1. A hypothetical Palestinian state would inevitably be a democracy from the beginning and continuing indefinitely into the future. 2. Democracies never go to war with each other. 3. Therefore a hypothetical Palestinian state would never make war on Israel. 4. Israel is well aware of these facts, and therefore Israel’s resistance to a Palestinian State must be for some other reason – that Israel would have to make “concessions.” 5. You prefer not to state what these concessions might be. Do I understand your argument correctly? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/127 "2013-02-27T16:21:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Let’s assume that’s true. Let me ask you this: Was there a serious push among Arabs anywhere to create a Palestinian state in (what used to be known as) Judea and Samaria? Er…under Arafat they revolted against the Jordanian government and tried to set up a Palestinian state in Jordan during the ill-fated Black September revolt and later they tried to set up a Palestinian state in Lebanon which was crushed by Israel’s invasion before the Israelis were sent scurrying back to Israel with their tails between their legs. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/128 "2013-02-27T16:47:51Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Did you really not know that? Try to stay on subject: (a) it’s not about me and (b) the point you responded to was about a Palestinian State. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/129 "2013-02-27T16:53:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do I understand your argument correctly? I haven’t made an argument. My point is that Israel is entirely content with the on going low level conflict not least because the Israeli political class believes this is the better of all outcomes for Israel. Discussing every/anything else is pointless because it won’t be permitted to happen, including allowing Palestinians the dignity of self determination. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/130 "2013-02-27T17:06:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So it’s an anti-Semitic trope going back millenia. Anti-foreigner. Which is still not ok, but the Jews aren’t being singled out, and THAT’S ok. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > … yes, many racist tropes have a long history and are stereotypes. Why you think that naming them as such makes them any less racist is baffling. “I don’t just hate black people, I hate everybody equally” is not racist. The French are not racist against Jews, they are “racist” against foreigners. Hell, they get into a damn fit if the French language starts borrowing words from another language like e-mail! I wouldn’t worry about what the French think of the Jews ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/131 "2013-02-27T17:07:01Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I haven’t made an argument. My point is that Israel is entirely content with the on going low level conflict not least because the Israeli political class believes this is the better of all outcomes for Israel. You do remember Camp David under Barak don’t you? The Israelis offered them a Palestinian state and not only did Arafat refuse, he didn’t even make a counter-offer, but merely walked away from the table and went to war. Now, certainly following Camp David, the Labor Party was destroyed politically because they were seen as people who’d stupidly trusted Arafat, but there’s no reason to believe that things couldn’t change if the Palestinian leadership can make a case that they are more trustworthy than Arafat. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/132 "2013-02-27T17:14:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yog, you’re completely ignoring the history of anti-Semitism. Just as I’m ignoring the much longer history of warring nation-states. We’re not going to have pogroms or Nazi-style holocausts against the Jews ever again. States, especially first-world Western ones like France, aren’t going back to colonial imperialism and conquer the first weak country they can find. So I’m not ignoring the anti-Semitism, I’m simply saying what people are too paranoid to say: The Jewish people should have no fear from France or England or any democratic Western first-world countries. Absolutely nothing. Sure, occasionally you’ll have something like the anti-Muslim hijab ban, or there would be flare-ups of anti-whatever hysteria following some event (9/11), but Jews will be living safe and comfortable in France or almost anywhere in Europe for the foreseeable future. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Additionally, France is vastly more multicultural than you seem to realize. There are huge numbers of Frenchmen who are descended from Spaniards, Portuguese and others, yet Frenchmen with the last name Martinez don’t face similar levels of distrust. Just like people named Muhammad isn’t trusted in the US. But I wouldn’t call Muslims or Arabs persecuted by any means, or fear for their safety. Even with the occasional horror, like that shooting at the Sikh temple last year, or that crazy woman in New York who pushed a Hindi man in front of a subway, generally we might consider Muslims to be more foreign than, for example, Mexicans, its a tiny degree that deserves no extra time spent worrying about > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Using your logic, suspecting Muslim Americans, Japanese Americans and German Americans shouldn’t be seen as anti-Muslim, anti-Japanese, or anti-German bigotry. There will always be small degrees of anti-anything. But no, I would not say that America has an anti-Muslim/Japanese/German bias that rises to the level of the inferred anti-Semitism > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Obviously YogSosoth thinks we shouldn’t get upset with people thinking French Jews are untrustworthy traitors and presumably he thinks the same of people who think Chinese Americans are untrustworthy, but most of us feel differently, and I’m sure if he really thought about it, he’d change his mind. You can and should get upset. But its the upset degree between knowing some racism exists, and blowing it out of proportion and thinking they’re going to start making people wear gold stars around their arm that I object to. So there’s some racism against an ethnic group somewhere, so what? Are they being killed? Are they being denied jobs? Are they being rounded up? No? So stop blowing it out of proportion! ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/133 "2013-02-27T17:21:33Z")
It will go on forever. And here’s partially why - as Marty Peretz writes: > [@](#): > > If the president hopes to accomplish anything important while finally visiting a key U.S. ally, he’ll need an attitude adjustment, writes Marty Peretz. > **[Barack Obama’s Cairo Speech, and His Israel Problem](https://www.thedailybeast.com/barack-obamas-cairo-speech-and-his-israel-problem/)** > > If the president hopes to accomplish anything important while finally visiting a key U.S. ally, he’ll need an attitude adjustment, writes Marty Peretz. “Attitude adjustment"?! That’s rich, as they say, coming from an Israel(i) apologist. As if Netanyahu – and the country on the whole - is the epitome of the “right attitude”. One would think it takes balls to write something like this about POTUS but no, it just takes someone who knows how things are and knows what he can say with no consequence. So that you, the reader, cannot pretend that your POTUS is in charge. But, yeah, let’s debate an alternative universe in which Obama does make calls 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/134 "2013-02-27T17:23:47Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Anti-foreigner. Which is still not ok, but the Jews aren’t being singled out, and THAT’S ok. That is complete bullshit. Produce a single shred of evidence to show that French Catholics are suspected of being more loyal to the Pope than to the French government. Also, produce a shred of evidence that Frenchmen with Spanish or Portuguese surnames are suspected of dual loyalty. > [@](#): > > The French are not racist against Jews, they are “racist” against foreigners. Hell, they get into a damn fit if the French language starts borrowing words from another language like e-mail! Calling Jews who’ve lived in France since prior to the Middle Ages “foreigners” is anti-Semitic and is straight out of Nazi thinking. Beyond that, I do find your idea that there’s nothing wrong with claiming Jews have “too much power in the business world” because that’s a belief that people have had for a long time quite amusing. Presumably you also think there’s nothing wrong with believing that Asian-Americans are greedy unscrupulous businessmen constantly trying to gouge people since that’s a long held belief. Similarly, I’m sure you think there’s nothing wrong with believing that all Arabs are terrorists since a lot of people have believed that for a long time. > [@](#): > > In America, you’re taught that you can be Mexican-American, Chinese-American, African-American, but in France, you are taught that you should be French first and everything else second. They don’t merely expect you to be part of the **melting pot** , they expect you to supplant your old loyalties with French loyalties. Er..the whole idea of the “melting pot” was that your “foreigness” would melt away and we’d all be Americans and American history is full of people insisting that “foreigners” should abandon all their loyalties and become “true Americans.” That’s why following WWI, German-American parents stopped teaching their children German and foreign language schools throughout the country were shut down and the public schools were at least partly created to “assimilate” foreign children. That’s also why countless foreign immigrants, I.E. Kirk Douglas, changed their names for more “American” ones. For that matter, to this day, you’ll find numerous commentators raging against people being identified as “Hispanic-Americans, African-Americans, etc.” and insisting “we’re all Americans.” You have a vastly rosier picture of America than one anyone familiar with American history would. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/135 "2013-02-27T17:35:25Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > We’re not going to have pogroms or Nazi-style holocausts against the Jews ever again. Nobody has said that we would. Please don’t distort my comments. > [@](#): > > So I’m not ignoring the anti-Semitism, Yes, you are. > [@](#): > > But I wouldn’t call Muslims or Arabs persecuted by any means, or fear for their safety. This is a silly strawman and not even a particularly good one but thanks for illustrating my point. No, Muslims and Arabs aren’t persecuted but only a complete moron would claim that anti-Arab racism or Islamophobia isn’t a problem in the US. Similarly, I never said Jews were persecuted and explicitly said it wasn’t comparable to Nazi Germany or the modern Arab world, I merely pointed out that France had issues with anti-Semitism and then proved it with evidence. > [@](#): > > But its the upset degree between knowing some racism exists, and blowing it out of proportion and thinking they’re going to start making people wear gold stars around their arm that I object to. Had I suggested that Jews in France would soon be wearing gold stars you’d have a point but I didn’t. It’s always easy to argue against people when you distort their arguments. Saying that anti-Semitism in France is a problem doesn’t mean that the persecution of Jews in France is a problem. Incidentally, you have yet to produce evidence of French Catholics being accused of being more loyal to the Pope than to the French government. Please do so since you claim that Jews aren’t being singled out. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/136 "2013-02-27T17:46:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Produce a single shred of evidence to show that French Catholics are suspected of being more loyal to the Pope than to the French government. > > Also, produce a shred of evidence that Frenchmen with Spanish or Portuguese surnames are suspected of dual loyalty. Oh sure, pick those two out of a hat. How about the equal or more distain they have for Muslims? That’s good enough for me to see that they’re not singling Jews out. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Calling Jews who’ve lived in France since prior to the Middle Ages “foreigners” is anti-Semitic and is straight out of Nazi thinking. Do you dispute that Jews have maintained a distinct identity that is more pronounced than other groups? In America, they’ve brought over us Chinese people for railroad work in the 1800’s. Some of us, and our little Chinatowns dotting the landscape, have been part of America for most of its history. Still many Chinese people, because we cling to our distinct food, culture, and odd New Years, are seen as less assimilated than some more recent converts. It varies by degrees where you go in the country and also within the ethnic/culture groups themselves. I’m totally Americanized, but there are people living in Chinatown for generations who are less Americanized than I am. Still, I wouldn’t say that America singles us out any more than Mexicans or Muslims (well maybe after 9/11) or Jews. You choose to take the isolated incidents of the worst that’s happening to A Jew somewhere in all of France and blow it up to make it seem like they’re a hated minority. I simply think you’re inundated with confirmation bias > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, I do find your idea that there’s nothing wrong with claiming Jews have “too much power in the business world” because that’s a belief that people have had for a long time quite amusing. > > Presumably you also think there’s nothing wrong with believing that Asian-Americans are greedy unscrupulous businessmen constantly trying to gouge people since that’s a long held belief. It IS amusing because its funny. And don’t words in my mouth, any racism is wrong, but there’s a degree to which I can and cannot be worked up to care about it. Its not that there’s nothing wrong with holding stereotypes, its that stereotypes exist everywhere about everything and we have to pick which ones to worry about (the pervasive, evil ones) and which ones are just minor annoyances. I make jokes about Jews controlling the world and liking money, but I say that with my Chinese friends as well. I talk a lot about how us Asians can’t drive or that we could be blindfolded by a strip of dental floss, or that there’s really only 4 ingredients in any Mexican dish (cheese, meat, chili, and tortillas). Its not a big deal and I don’t think you should be worrying so much about it Just because some people were killed horribly almost a hundred years ago doesn’t give them the excuse to act like a bunch of paranoid freaks now, when the world has clearly changed. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Similarly, I’m sure you think there’s nothing wrong with believing that all Arabs are terrorists since a lot of people have believed that for a long time. Not Arabs. All MUSLIMS are terrorists. Get your prejudice right! 😉 And its funny because its true. Only its not. But that’s why its funny. Also FYI, black people like big butts. They cannot lie about it > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er..the whole idea of the “melting pot” was that your “foreigness” would melt away and we’d all be Americans and American history is full of people insisting that “foreigners” should abandon all their loyalties and become “true Americans.” Yeah I know, I used the term wrong. So sue me. Or wait until I crash my car as my race is wont to do > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For that matter, to this day, you’ll find numerous commentators raging against people being identified as “Hispanic-Americans, African-Americans, etc.” and insisting “we’re all Americans.” You have a vastly rosier picture of America than one anyone familiar with American history would. This is your problem. I’m not talking about history. You’re too caught up in it, unable to look at the present without the very worst of history tainting your view. I’ve moved by it. Chinese people are no more railroad workers than laundromat owners, so if I want to make a joke about us building the railroads in our spare time, I’ll do that without worrying that suddenly we’ll all be rounded up and put into slave labor by Amtrak. So too should Jews in France or most parts of Europe feel safe and secure, and take their occasional annoyances with actual racist people as a small part of the overall more tolerant European lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/137 "2013-02-27T18:31:41Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Anti-foreigner. […] Jews aren’t being singled out, Astute readers might note that you’ve just repeated the same exact thing you just said, despite the fact that the significant holes in your argument were pointed out to, and completely un-addressed by, you. Here, let me remind you: > [@](#): > > it’s an anti-Semitic trope going back millenia. And your obfuscation is ridiculous, the idea that Jews who’ve been living in a country in an unbroken lineage for centuries are “foreigners” is something right out of Nazi ontology. To say nothing of the fact that your claim seems more than a bit like special pleading. Can you, for instance, provide any evidence of polls which show that Europeans think any other religious group, at all, is more loyal to “global [their religion]” than their own homes? Simply repeating your contention that it’s merley “anti-foreigner” is weaksauce. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > “I don’t just hate black people, I hate everybody equally” is not racist. The French are not racist against Jews, they are “racist” against foreigners. Yet again, you’re just repeating your previous statements and ignoring that you’ve already been shown to have holes in your logic. Yet again, to remind you: > [@](#): > > Prove you’re not just handwaving away facts with obfuscation. Prove that, for instance, the French have anywhere near the antipathy to French Catholics they have for French Jews. Something tells me you can’t. Just as your insinuation is that somehow being a French Jew is not “supplant[ing] your old loyalties with French loyalties.” Any time now. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/138 "2013-02-27T19:21:09Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > History very strongly suggests democracies do not go to war against each other - the event never having happened. Yes it has, many times. It astounds me how often the ‘democracies don’t go to war with each other’ chestnut gets tossed about. The bloodiest war the US has ever fought was between democracies, the US Civil War. There’s a good read [here](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm) on democracies that have gone to war with other democracies from Athens vs. Syracuse to the present day with rebuttals of why they ‘don’t count’ and counter rebuttals on why they ‘do count’. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/139 "2013-02-27T19:28:26Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Try to stay on subject: (a) it’s not about me I’m just trying to figure out what you are saying here. > [@](#): > > and (b) the point you responded to was about a Palestinian State. No, I was responding to a more general claim. You asserted that democracies do not go to war against one another. I pointed out that Hamas was democratically elected and is in fact at war with Israel. Your claim would seem to be wrong. > [@](#): > > I haven’t made an argument. Then you do not disagree with my position that a Palestinian State would exacerbate the situation? If you disagree, why do you disagree? > [@](#): > > including allowing Palestinians the dignity of self determination Nonsense, Israel has made offers of statehood repeatedly. In all those offers, the Palestinian Arabs (as a group) would have been free to choose their own governments. Not only that, organization which governs Gaza was elected. And not only that, but the Palestinian Authority has postponed elections repeatedly on its own volition. You may not like the results of self-determination, but Israel is not to blame for them. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342/140 "2013-02-27T19:29:30Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Yes it has, many times. It astounds me how often the ‘democracies don’t go to war with each other’ chestnut gets tossed about. What’s even more astounding is the assumption that any Palestinian State would definitely be a democracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-in-conflict-for-65-years-how-will-it-end/651342.md?page=8)